Hi ,i am in the process of cleaning my EGR all gone well and it was coked up solid ,gave it a good clean with carb cleaner ,cotton buds and everything is moving freely .When i took it of i noticed that the second pipe that comes out of the egr (the one going down into the bottom of the engine has snapped off which would explain why i have been seeing exhaust gas in the engine compartment and why the whole compartment is sooty ,my question is ,because this is such an awkward place to get to is it worth blanking the egr off to stop the gas blowing out through this pipe into my engine bay ?

/it's not awkward, just take battery out (1 x 13mm bolt) and you have as much access to the pipe as you want (it's held on by a 4mm allen key on the bracket/clamp)

T14086 said:

/it's not awkward, just take battery out (1 x 13mm bolt) and you have as much access to the pipe as you want (it's held on by a 4mm allen key on the bracket/clamp)

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Cheers for the reply ,the main problem is i need a new pipe or i could just blank off the egr ,and is that the pipe that gets blanked off, or the top one ,or doesn't it matter

Hi, it sounds like it is the pipe that comes from the exhaust manifold to the egr valve that has broken. Is that right. If so it can be blocked at the exhaust end, and the egr end, so that the whole pipe can become redundant. See this link http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135682
it is on the Saab site, but there are the same Fiat engines. It shows the 8 and 16 valve layouts ( scroll down). If that is the case it would need a steel plate, not ally ( or it may melt)
Item number: 120928729531 on eBay is of the ally one.

Bertye said:

Hi, it sounds like it is the pipe that comes from the exhaust manifold to the egr valve that has broken. Is that right. If so it can be blocked at the exhaust end, and the egr end, so that the whole pipe can become redundant. See this link ( you need to contact me for this as I can't put URLs on yet.)

it is on the Saab site, but there are the same Fiat engines. It shows the 8 and 16 valve layouts ( scroll down). If that is the case it would need a steel plate, not ally ( or it may melt)
Item number: 120928729531 on eBay is of the ally one.

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That's correct ,i am in the process of making 2 blanking plates and removing the battery to gain access ,i will replace the pipe eventually once i have sourced one but need the car back on the road today so need a quick fix ,so a baking tray and a grinder have sufficed .......sshhh don't tell the wife

Bertye said:

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similar but there is a second pipe coming out the back of the egr not shown in your diagram,it may be the one in the bottom diagram not sure as they are slightly different .It is an absolute pill to get near .took the battery out as suggested but still can't actually see the exhaust end so had to do everything by feel it's basically a circular hole with a clip around it similar to a jubilee clip ,so i had to cut a circular bit of metal to blank the end of then try to get the broken end of the pipe over it with the clip around and then tighten up the allen key ,needed 3 hands but could only get one behind the engine block .I put some exhaust filler paste around it but i think it's still blowing a bit so will have to find a proper pipe

now because the battery was taken out i need a radio code so any tips on getting the radio out ,i have tried 2 small screw drivers i use to use on my old transit but cannot get this radio out to get the serial number ,it's the original radio moulded to the dash

I need the pipe that is attached to the heat exchanger on the right and then attached to the EGR using 6,12,14 .This pipe does not appear to have a part number so i am having some trouble locating one and i don't really want to buy a whole heat exchanger just for the pipe so any one know where i might get one ?

thanks Martyh

I don't know how the pipe is attached to the exhaust system, however if Fiat use a flange and bolts I'd just fit a blanking plate and do the same on the EGR to inlet manifold ducting.
Plenty of folks running with blanked EGR's, you've seen yourself the crap the EGR puts back into the engine - It's not a legal requirement and it won't stop your car passing the MOT.
Only potential downside would appear to be that the engine might run leaner and therefore hotter some of the time, however I've done over 70k in Multi's with blanked EGR's and haven't had any problems.

It's a diesel not a petrol, so doesn't have a specific fuel air ratio, so can't run lean. Only more fuel and air will means more heat, as in full throttle and maximum turbo pressure, at this point the egr valve should be shut any way. If it is not, then plenty of black smoke.

Agreed in part, however you have to understand why the EGR was introduced in the first place.

The EGR's role is to reduce NO emissions which are a by product of high temperature combustion, it does this very crudely by introducing inert exhaust gases which reduce the available oxygen, the mixture is therefore made richer which burns cooler.

Diesels run 'lean' most of the time, as there is usually more air than fuel at most throttle settings. If you're smoking you're running rich and something isn't right.
With the EGR blanked, combustion temperatures will go up at part throttle settings but as previously stated, I've run two Multi's with blanked EGR's without problems.
On the plus side, you should get better fuel economy and less soot as well as better driveability, not to mention the engine isn't eating it's own ****e.

A petrol engine has a ignition point ( a spark plug) and has a flame path from that point. If the ratio is lean the flame is faster, so is hotter in a time frame, as the temperature will then have a higher gradient, the engine will get hotter ( also sometimes will get pinking/ knocking). Diesels do not have a ignition point/source, but use the heat from the compressing of the gasses. Even if there is only one diesel molecule, it would react with the nearest Oxygen atoms it come into contact with. So if there was one or 1,000,000 diesel molecules, the burn time would be the same. Temperature in a diesel is related to the calories in the fuel burnt. More fuel, more heat, not more Oxygen more heat ( other then the all the fuel is burnt). The modern diesel is generally very cool running, and can be a pain to get enough heat to even clear the screen in the morning, and Ford have made there now engines with the exhaust manifold as part of the cylinder head to try and get some heat it the the water. The whole egr system is a vary bad way of sorting out the emissions that a engine can produce. Ivaco have brought out a Euro 6 engine ( the latest and most strict emissions for 2014) That has no egr system, not even by opening the exhaust valves again, as it the new Fiat engines, and no DPF. How? by making the engine right in the first place, and adding add blue to the exhaust gas when needed. The problem for all, is engines get old, and need tinkering to keep them going in some sort of fashion for a bit longer.

As you say it's all about the burn, I should have said made the mixture richer in the original post as diesels run lean virtually all the time anyway.

Deliberately making an engine inefficient to reduce NO at the expense of increased soot particles makes no sense to me at all, to then add a DPF to take out the particles you've created by doing so is just complicating the matter further.

Better to have sensors, exhaust temp and/or lambda feeding in to the ECU to better regulate the fuel/air mix.

Not sure about Ad Blue either, theoretically fine but if the catalytic process isn't 100% you're now emitting ammonia which isn't exactly inert.

To get the emissions down requires very accurate injection timing (nowadays it's several short bursts through multile jets rather than a single longer one through one hole) over a short part of the crank rotation. So you need very high injection pressures to deliver the required amount of fuel in a short period of time. As the pressures rise, so does the risk of pre-ignition. The high pressure injection systems can also generate pretty unpleasant noise and wear the injectors quickly. It's not as simple as it first seems!

Had a VW Passat 130PD which had fantastic low down torque albeit a bit rough in places, this had a cam driven pump for each injector which raised pressure to over 2000bar!
Needed a special grade of engine oil or the PD cams ground themselves to death.

VW gave up the PD route as CR became the diesel standard, infinitely controllable piezo injectors then made multi-point staggered injection possible.
PD is still used in heavy diesel engines though as NVH isn't so much of an issue.

Incidentally, Fiat held the initial patent for common rail diesel injection.

The second of my Alhambras had the PD115 engine. I put a Tuning Box (the proper one) on it and it was fantastic. Like you say, masses of low down grunt. It would pull away in 3rd without having to touch the accelerator! It wasn't as smooth as the JTD higher up the rev range, but there wasn't any need to rev it so it really didn't matter. It's a shame that VAG gave up on the individual pump PD idea.

I do wish the Multi had the same low rev torque.

The newer VAG 140/170 engines aren't too shabby, even the 105ps economy engine in the Passat isn't underpowered.

I have a good mate with a 105 Passat and it's cleverly geared and has good sound proofing, high 40's, low 50's all the time.

momoe said:

I don't know how the pipe is attached to the exhaust system, however if Fiat use a flange and bolts I'd just fit a blanking plate and do the same on the EGR to inlet manifold ducting.
Plenty of folks running with blanked EGR's, you've seen yourself the crap the EGR puts back into the engine - It's not a legal requirement and it won't stop your car passing the MOT.
Only potential downside would appear to be that the engine might run leaner and therefore hotter some of the time, however I've done over 70k in Multi's with blanked EGR's and haven't had any problems.

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I blanked the pipe off at the heat exchanger end and the egr end of the pipe as earlier suggested and so far no problems ,i have most of my power back ,the engine is much quieter and more responsive and when i do the injector seals next weekend it should be fine so i am very tempted to just leave it as is .....don't try to fix something that works the only time i might try to put the pipe back is if the cap i made blows off