As i have been around Fiats for too many years to mention, i have befriended quite a few people 'in the know'.
One of them works in R&D, at Fiat. Indeed, he once worked on Seat and Fiat Rally teams. But now, a principal job within R&D.
He gets to hear inside talk and i will share some of it with you over the coming time.
Sergio Marchione, is going to retire at the end of 2018, as long as the FCA truck division launches it's next trucks on time. He will then step down, and take up a major post at Ferrari.
As he is head of Ferrari, i would think this will be his job. The right person to do it? Not so sure.
Right let's talk once he has gone.
Since 2015, high end executives within FCA, have been badgering, for a new Lancia Delta Integrale. This has more or less, got the green light. It will be based on the Alfa Q4 platform, and could have the new Hurricane GME 350 engine. This engine is both turbo and supercharged, and destined for Alfa. But it will get rolled out, to other products.
The engine puts out 350 bhp, with tons of torque. It's good for over 400 bhp, so with this engine, suspension similar to the Gulia, the new Integrale will be born.
Also possible in the pipe line, could be the Fulvia project resurrected. But Lancia will concentrate on bespoke cars, similar to when they were pre Fiat owned. So expect high prices, and great cars.
Fiat Europe will get a massive cash injection. This is sorely needed, and Fiat models, based on Alfas and worldwide cars, will slowly be unveiled.
And finally, Alfa will have eight new models by the end of 2020.
Gulia, Stelvios, a bigger SUV, a bigger saloon, two sport cars to take on Porsche, and two mystery vehicles.
Alfa has said, no to an Alfasud. This i think is a big mistake. So no Mio replacement! They want to concentrate on SUV and sport cars. A lot of loyal fans are not going to be happy.

I really hope that Lancia will be given a new lease of life. I had the impression they were going to wind the brand down completely. One thing I am grateful about is SM has finally decided to stop badgering other car companies about possible mergers. It was getting embarrassing.

Did you know, Lancia still outsells Audi in Europe! This is why Lancia will get resurrected. It still has a great following, and the Integrale is always the icon leader of cars wanted!

sumplug said:

Did you know, Lancia still outsells Audi in Europe! This is why Lancia will get resurrected. It still has a great following, and the Integrale is always the icon leader of cars wanted!

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No I didn't. The UK-centric motoring press have largely reported them as heading towards extinction. We had Chryslers which were Lancias in disguise and now don't even get those! I really liked the 'Chrysler' Delta - it was a nice, comfortable car and I liked the striking design. Can't even get them now. [emoji19]

I will tell you about what Lancia had planned for the mk 3 Delta, before Marchione cancelled most of it, in another thread soon.

sumplug said:

Did you know, Lancia still outsells Audi in Europe! This is why Lancia will get resurrected. It still has a great following, and the Integrale is always the icon leader of cars wanted!

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Really ? Hard to believe given that Lancia are now (and have for a few years) only been sold in Italy.

Lancia only built about 70,000 cars last year while European sales figures for Audi had them selling something like 200,000 Audi A3 models without counting any other car Audi produces.

Maybe they sell more Lancias in Italy than Audi do but not the whole of Europe.

I'm fairly sure SM has stated in the past his intention to kill the Lancia brand for good in 2018. The main problem with Lancia being that it sits in the same market group as Alfa Romeo and the reputation of Lancia was destroyed years ago with some very badly made cars the echoes of that reputation still reverberate today.

Sorry, meant Italy sales.
Reputation, yes in UK, but until Marchione came along, Lancia was outselling Fiat, in some markets.
Marchione has admitted, he has ignored Europe. His big plan was to merge with another company, and share chassis and engine technology. This would give him the chance to sell off Lancia to the Chinese, and possibly Alfa, if they don't perform in sales. But his idea backfired. He is not liked amongst the Fiat/Lancia/Alfa people. He has admitted too, he loves big engined trucks, and his desire to own an American car company.
By buying Chyrsler, not only did he take the biggest loan ever, in the sector, but bankrupted Fiat Spa. He neglected Europe, cancelled the Topolino and Punto. Tipo never got fully developed, and turned into a Bravo with new body.
But and it's a big but, once he is gone, Europe will be under the spotlight. You simply cannot throw Lancia away, with its pedegree in Motorsport, and some of the most iconic, and beautiful cars ever built. Alfa have one last chance to do things right. So far, they have brought out, or about too, competitive cars. May it continue!
There is talk, that FCA might be split into two companies. They basically​ are now, but Fiat Europe will get more power, and more control on what is produced etc. Can Lancia rise from the ashes? You bet!

sumplug said:

Sorry, meant Italy sales.
Reputation, yes in UK, but until Marchione came along, Lancia was outselling Fiat, in some markets.
Marchione has admitted, he has ignored Europe. His big plan was to merge with another company, and share chassis and engine technology. This would give him the chance to sell off Lancia to the Chinese, and possibly Alfa, if they don't perform in sales. But his idea backfired. He is not liked amongst the Fiat/Lancia/Alfa people. He has admitted too, he loves big engined trucks, and his desire to own an American car company.
By buying Chyrsler, not only did he take the biggest loan ever, in the sector, but bankrupted Fiat Spa. He neglected Europe, cancelled the Topolino and Punto. Tipo never got fully developed, and turned into a Bravo with new body.
But and it's a big but, once he is gone, Europe will be under the spotlight. You simply cannot throw Lancia away, with its pedegree in Motorsport, and some of the most iconic, and beautiful cars ever built. Alfa have one last chance to do things right. So far, they have brought out, or about too, competitive cars. May it continue!
There is talk, that FCA might be split into two companies. They basically​ are now, but Fiat Europe will get more power, and more control on what is produced etc. Can Lancia rise from the ashes? You bet!

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I hope so - if SM doesn't ruin it all first. His underinvestment in new products has left them struggling to compete with the old 'bread and butter' models. I used to be a big fan of Sergio - but those days are long gone. I think he's harmed the reputation and image of Fiat and Alfa with his strategies. I'm pleased for Ferrari that they got floated off - they're in much better shape now. I'd like to see Ferrari take on Maserati from FCA.

sumplug said:

By buying Chyrsler, not only did he take the biggest loan ever, in the sector, but bankrupted Fiat Spa. He neglected Europe, cancelled the Topolino and Punto. Tipo never got fully developed, and turned into a Bravo with new body.

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This doesn't even follow the events that lead to fiat buying Chrysler?
Fiat had already been making the bravo for two years in 2009 when the merger began with fiat buying an ever increasing share of Chrysler from 2009 - 2014.

Fiat Spa didn't go bust it was absorbed by the new company formed from the merger of fiat and Chrysler.

Furthermore to fund all of this fiat spun Ferrari off into its own subsidiary fiat selling its controlling stake in order to raise the money needed for the fiat Chrysler merger and to rejuvenate the dying Alfa brand at that time.
Given how much FCA have invested in rebuilding Alfa, which still had a European wide network of dealers and service centres with warehousing and parts distribution, it would be idiotic now to launch a new car into the market directly competing with the cars you've just sold off the family silver to design and build (which is exactly what fiat did with the sale of Ferrari)

Now Lancia as it stands today has no R&D department, now dealer network, no parts distribution network outside of Italy and the rest of Europe have forgotten about them and moved on. Yes they have a racing heritage but the last time they did anything memorable was 30 years ago, and the current generation of car buyers have no reason to get behind Lancia now, what possible benefit is there to fiat at the current time to bring the brand back with the investment that would be required, remembering that they said sold Ferrari off to save Alfa, they have little else to sell, Maserati? Maybe but then Maserati makes the sort of cars already that Lancia would need to pitch to not clash with the rest of the FCA line up.

It does not sound like you're talking from a position of top secret behind the scenes knowledge as you've not even got the basic history right?

What you mean Ferrari sold off? All they have done is float 10% on the American market.
As for Fiat to buy Chyrsler, they had to borrow a substantial amount to buy Chrysler. They still owe over $5 billion .
Tipo still has the crappy rear dead beam axle. Exactly the same as the Bravo. Most manufacturers left it behind several years ago!
Fiat went bust, in 2004, reason Marchione was brought in. They went bust again, with the huge debt they took on. Reason Europe never got any money last two years, reason all models cancelled. If they didn't go bust, why cancel !! Hello!!!
Get you facts right. Ferrari are not sold off. Fiat gave £7 billion to Alfa. Marchione hates Lancia and Abarth.
Once he gone, all will change. America will not need the investment. It will divert to Europe. What he did is cancel the Punto project, the best selling car in the biggest segment for Fiat after the 500. He has not got a clue on worldwide sales.
If Ferrari were sold off, please show. Thank you.

sumplug said:

What you mean Ferrari sold off? All they have done is float 10% on the American market.
As for Fiat to buy Chyrsler, they had to borrow a substantial amount to buy Chrysler. They still owe over $5 billion .


Fiat went bust, in 2004, reason Marchione was brought in. They went bust again, with the huge debt they took on. Reason Europe never got any money last two years, reason all models cancelled. If they didn't go bust, why cancel !! Hello!!!

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Hello!

Fiat didn't go bust in 2004 (it came close but didn't go bust) they brought in SM to save the company from going bust which he did, one of the main things he pulled off was extorting $2Bn from GM for GM to buy their way out of the contract they had put in place many years before obliging them to buy fiat group as a whole, GM could not afford to do this as it would have bankrupt fiat and GM to do so, so $2bn buy out plan saved fiat from going bankrupt and got GM out of its contract. Non of this, however had anything to do with Chrysler which at the time was happily Nestled in Daimlers spreadsheets.

Going back to Ferrari, 10% was and still is owned by Piero Ferrari, son of Enzo Ferrari, the other 90% was owned by fiat. In 2015 FCA did an IPO of 10% of its shares in Ferrari then the beginning of last year it distributed its remaining shares (80%) amongst the owners of FCA shares, the objective being to push up the value of FCA shares considerably which in succeeded in doing. So for every 10 FCA shares you had you would be given 1 Ferrari share, this plan convinced investors to invest heavily in FCA and in two months increased the value of FCA shares nearly 70% netting FCA a tidy sum while keeping the investors very happy, but completely separating the fiat and Ferrari groups.

Fiat was very clever in the way it bought Chrysler. They only paid about $1.7bn to fund the initial share ownership back in 2009, then using the money that Chrysler made over the following years, fiat used the profits to buy up more of the Chrysler till it owned the whole company. In the end fiat paid about $4bn for the remaining shares using Chrysler's own money and the initial $1.7bn came from the American tax payer to save Chrysler going bust and losing thousands of American jobs, even then that loan was paid with Chrysler money.

In effect what fiat did was borrow the banks money to buy a small share of a house, rent that house out then used that money to pay off the loan, then then found the remaining money under the floor boards to buy the remainder of the house and carried on renting it out to make a bit more money. In the end Chrysler got saved and fiat basically didn't spend a penny of their own money.

........ you might need to go an read up on the financial markets and fiat corporate history.

AndyRKett said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/12/31/ferrari-standalone/78138244/

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Those​ shareholders have done quite well out of it! The share price is in the high 60s now. Their recent form in F1 seems to have helped too (either that or it's an astonishing coincidence).

JCarp16 said:

Those​ shareholders have done quite well out of it! The share price is in the high 60s now. Their recent form in F1 seems to have helped too (either that or it's an astonishing coincidence).

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That was all part of the plan.

It was expected that the Ferrari share price would go up significantly following its split from Ferrari, making all those people who invested in fiat group shares very happy.

The fact of the matter here is that fiat no longer own Ferrari not even a majority or minority share holders.

Everything in the thread above seems to be based on sentiment and hopeful thinking than cold hard facts

AndyRKett said:

That was all part of the plan.

It was expected that the Ferrari share price would go up significantly following its split from Ferrari, making all those people who invested in fiat group shares very happy.

The fact of the matter here is that fiat no longer own Ferrari not even a majority or minority share holders.

Everything in the thread above seems to be based on sentiment and hopeful thinking than cold hard facts

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It may have been the plan but the shareprice struggled initially and I recall they received quite a lot of criticism positioning Ferrari as a 'luxury goods' brand rather than a maker of cars. This was the reason for the high asking price - it eventually did what they hoped - but not without a wobble.

JCarp16 said:

I recall they received quite a lot of criticism positioning Ferrari as a 'luxury goods' brand rather than a maker of cars.

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No, it first of all is a luxury goods brand as they make a lot more than just cars, secondly they started the share prices low which they got criticised for.

AndyRKett said:

No, it first of all is a luxury goods brand as they make a lot more than just cars, secondly they started the share prices low which they got criticised for.

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No. There was a mixed response. Not everyone thought they were being realistic. Initially the share price did fall too - leading a number of critics to feel they were vindicated. http://www.digitallook.com/news_amp...-to-burn-rubber-on-wednesday-ipo--900675.html

Personally I think it was the right thing to do and a shrewd move. They seem to have gone from strength to strength since - although it has made FCA less attractive as a merger partner. I'm sure there were a few companies who would've liked to have acquired Ferrari. I still think that if they have concerns over 'cheapening' the brand by increasing volume then acquiring Maserati from FCA would give an outlet for increasing volume with a different badge. I think both would benefit from such a relationship.

I think Fiat acquiring Jeep can only be a good thing as it is a popular brand in the US and some appeal in Europe although they need to improve the interior designs to compete with Land Rover at the luxury end of the market. As for what to Lancia I think the brand as very little appeal outside of Italy and Fiat would be better placed focusing on Alfa Romeo and Maserati which is what they have chosen to do.

I think the worse thing Marchione has done is neglect the core European products like the Punto which is now ancient. But 500 project has been a great success and the Panda continues to sell well so all that is needed really is a proper new small family car to replace the Punto and maybe another Fiat badged crossover.

kuliand said:

I think Fiat acquiring Jeep can only be a good thing as it is a popular brand in the US and some appeal in Europe although they need to improve the interior designs to compete with Land Rover at the luxury end of the market. As for what to Lancia I think the brand as very little appeal outside of Italy and Fiat would be better placed focusing on Alfa Romeo and Maserati which is what they have chosen to do.

I think the worse thing Marchione has done is neglect the core European products like the Punto which is now ancient. But 500 project has been a great success and the Panda continues to sell well so all that is needed really is a proper new small family car to replace the Punto and maybe another Fiat badged crossover.

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Yes. I would love a new Punto. One good enough to be at the top of its class. Just don't know if it will ever happen. The 500 badge seems to add a premium to the price. There is no supermini sized version either. It's either the MPV like 500L, the 500X or the city car sized 500.