What's wrong with the old Platforms?

Currently reading:
What's wrong with the old Platforms?

Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
3,581
Points
978
Location
United Kingdom
I read a lot that the 500, Panda and likes of the Ka share the same platform amongst others. In fact.. there can't be that many different platforms across the current Fiat range.

Fiat also uses old engines like the FIRE - albeit re-tuned etc..

My question is, what's wrong with this? If they can continue to make unique cars like the Panda and 500 - two different cars for different types of buyer completely, at different pricepoints and with different competitive feature sets and a few engines to choose from.. who really is suffering from it?

I'm guessing it costs millions to develop new platforms, which is probably why Ford went to Fiat for the Ka as at that time they did not want to invest in a segment they weren't leading and focussed more on their Fiesta/Focus position.

Do any other companies do this to the extent Fiat do? And what exact difference does a platform make?

Learnt the Dacia's share with the Clio / Qashqai , the VAG(***) cars all share with each other between the VW / Audi / Skoda etc ranges.. The Ford Focus and the Volvo V40.. Oh, and am I right to think the 1.3 Diesel Corsa's are Multijets?!
 
Basically all Puntos and Corsas from 2006 to now use the same platform and you're right that the Vaux 1.3 diesel engine is an FPT (FIAT Powertrain Technologies) engine in disguise.

It's very common these days, heck even back in the 60s/70s/80s it was common with SEAT, Lada and many others using FIAT designs with their own badges on.
 
Basically all Puntos and Corsas from 2006 to now use the same platform and you're right that the Vaux 1.3 diesel engine is an FPT (FIAT Powertrain Technologies) engine in disguise.

It's very common these days, heck even back in the 60s/70s/80s it was common with SEAT, Lada and many others using FIAT designs with their own badges on.

Knew it!! some little silver spoon boy around my street always laughs at my Panda.. he's running around in (first car) a 2014 Limited Edition Corsa with the 1.3 diesel... poor guy must have been too scared to have a petrol in fear of stalling.. Little does he know it's a Fiat at its heart (y) :D haha
 
A quick summary of the Fiat platforms:

Vehicles based on Fiat Compact platform:
Compact (C-Evo):
2010-Present Alfa Romeo Giulietta
LWB Compact Wide (CUSW):
2013-Present Dodge Dart/Fiat Viaggio/Ottimo
2014-Present Jeep Cherokee
2015-Present Chrysler 200
2017-Present Chrysler Pacifica

Vehicles based on Fiat Mini platform:
1999 Fiat Ecobasic concept car
2003 Fiat Panda Mk2
2006 Fiat Panda Hydrogen
2007 Fiat 500
2008 Ford Ka Mk2
2011 Lancia Ypsilon Mk3
2012 Fiat Panda Mk3

Vehicles based on Fiat Economy ("Low Cost") platform:
2010 Fiat Uno (327)
2011 Fiat Palio (326)
2012 Fiat Grand Siena (326)
2014 Fiat Fiorino (327)

Vehicles based on Small platform:
Small:
2005- Fiat Grande Punto//Punto Evo
2006-2014 Opel Corsa D
2007- Fiat Fiorino
2007- Fiat Qubo
2008- Alfa Romeo MiTo
2012- Opel Adam
2014–present Opel Corsa E
Small LWB:
2007- Fiat Linea
2010- Opel Meriva B
2010- Fiat Doblò
2011- Opel Combo D
Small Wide LWB:
2012- Fiat 500L
2015- Ram ProMaster City
2015- Fiat Tipo/Egea
2015- Fiat Toro
Small Wide 4×4:
2014- Jeep Renegade
2015- Fiat 500X

Maserati M156:
Maserati Quattroporte 2013
Maserati M157 (shortened M156):
Maserati Ghibli 2013
Alfa Romeo Giulia platform (based on M157):
Alfa Romeo Giulia

That's what I could find :)

And every manufacture does this to some extend, as platforms are very expensive.
Even as far as share the entire platform with another manufacture. Fiat also does this, for example with the new 124 Spider, which share it's platform with the new Mazda MX-5 (it's actually a MX-5 in different styling with a different engine, but everything else is the same).
 
Last edited:
A quick summary of the Fiat platforms:

Vehicles based on Fiat Compact platform:
Compact (C-Evo):
2010-Present Alfa Romeo Giulietta and Bravo

Vehicles based on Fiat Mini platform:
1999 Fiat Ecobasic concept car
2003 Fiat Panda Mk2
2006 Fiat Panda Hydrogen REALLY
2007 Fiat 500
2008 Ford Ka Mk2
2011 Lancia Ypsilon Mk3
2012 Fiat Panda Mk3


Vehicles based on Small platform:
Small:
2005- Fiat Grande Punto//Punto Evo
2006-2014 Opel Corsa D
2007- Fiat Fiorino
2007- Fiat Qubo
2008- Alfa Romeo MiTo
2012- Opel Adam - AKA Vauxhall Adrian
2014–present Opel Corsa E

That's what I could find :)

fantastic - thanks.!!
 
Last edited:
So, I guess to answer the question in the title of the post, since they all still get used - absolutely nothing is wrong with the old platforms :D

Everybody says Fiat are in trouble etc / they're still using old platforms making it out to be a problem, just wondered if it really was but tbh it seems like it can't be if they're making a profit from it this long into the use of them!
 
Everybody says Fiat are in trouble etc / they're still using old platforms making it out to be a problem, just wondered if it really was but tbh it seems like it can't be if they're making a profit from it this long into the use of them!


Fiat are perpetually in trouble in one way or another. They got pushed into buying Chrysler but doing so hasn't done them any favours. They are big but not as big as the likes of VW, BMW, ford and GM as a result they don't sell as many cars so they don't have the same R&D budgets.

To put that in perspective ford sell more fiestas than fiat sell cars. Same applies to VW with the golf.

Fiat's biggest problem is the 500. It has been hugely successful and basically saved the brand but it's getting old and fiat now they will need to replace it soon, however they have so far failed in every attempt to come anywhere close to the success of the 500 with the 500l, lx and X. So at the moment the new future 500 could make or break the company
 
Fiat are perpetually in trouble in one way or another. They got pushed into buying Chrysler but doing so hasn't done them any favours. They are big but not as big as the likes of VW, BMW, ford and GM as a result they don't sell as many cars so they don't have the same R&D budgets.

To put that in perspective ford sell more fiestas than fiat sell cars. Same applies to VW with the golf.

Fiat's biggest problem is the 500. It has been hugely successful and basically saved the brand but it's getting old and fiat now they will need to replace it soon, however they have so far failed in every attempt to come anywhere close to the success of the 500 with the 500l, lx and X. So at the moment the new future 500 could make or break the company


I feel like Fiat should stick to what they know best - cars the size of the 500 and Panda.

Rather than having one entry into each category, why not have one SUPERMINI entry into each sub-category, it must work.. Look at Land Rover, many people interested in a 4x4 , whether it be speed, luxury, utility they have had a vehicle to match.

If only Fiat focussed on dominating the mini segment in this way.. The 500 being chic and aimed at young people as it is, Panda being the universal city car, maybe making more affordable sporty lines - not the 500 S / Abarth but one to really go above the likes of VW's sporty Up at a similar price .. Really dominating the sector.

Maybe I'm missing the point, but it seems to me Fiat got out of trouble with the 2003 Panda, their true area of expertise. Then another massive step with the 500 their expertise again.

Family cars, 4x4s and even sports cars don't seem to be their strong point. The products are FANTASTIC to me, but a lot of people I've shown the new 124 only seem to like it until they learn it's a Fiat :-/ And anyone I show the 500X to 'they copied the mini with those rear lights' :-/
 
I feel like Fiat should stick to what they know best - cars the size of the 500 and Panda.

Rather than having one entry into each category, why not have one SUPERMINI entry into each sub-category, it must work.. Look at Land Rover, many people interested in a 4x4 , whether it be speed, luxury, utility they have had a vehicle to match.

If only Fiat focussed on dominating the mini segment in this way.. The 500 being chic and aimed at young people as it is, Panda being the universal city car, maybe making more affordable sporty lines - not the 500 S / Abarth but one to really go above the likes of VW's sporty Up at a similar price .. Really dominating the sector.

Maybe I'm missing the point, but it seems to me Fiat got out of trouble with the 2003 Panda, their true area of expertise. Then another massive step with the 500 their expertise again.

Family cars, 4x4s and even sports cars don't seem to be their strong point. The products are FANTASTIC to me, but a lot of people I've shown the new 124 only seem to like it until they learn it's a Fiat :-/ And anyone I show the 500X to 'they copied the mini with those rear lights' :-/


Fiat make terrible decisions, they have changed their brand logo and identity at least 3 times in the last 20 years. They made some top selling cars like the mk2 punto which was very popular and well received, the. Then made the grande which showed promise but the company seemed to just give up on it and now there virtually is no punto. The revamp of the panda was great and it was/is a great little car, but where is the marketing? Fiat only seem to want to market a car if it's new. Their most recent model the 500x now seems to have reached the end of its marketing budget so the initial good sales will tail off, and yes they did rip off he mini, they freely admit to wanting mini's slice of the market and pitching their cars at potential mini owners, the 500 is popular in that respect but if you're spending £30k on a new mini, why would you look at a £22k 500x that doesn't come with half the options and technology?

It would be much better if like VW they said right fiat is our cheap little car business. Alfa our medium car executive car business (along side Audi as an example) divide the fiat brands up and give them some identity. The decision to remake the spider is an unusual plan and would have been far better aimed at Alfa owners. Jeep seem to make their own brand of quirky little 4x4s now when they have a history of making the likes of the Cherokee and wrangler proper off roaders fiat just want to cash in on the brand rather than remain true to it.

If VW wanted to make a 2 seat sports car they would stick a Porsche badge on it. A supercar gets a Bentley or Bugatti badge. Look at the French car makers they stick to what sells for them and never stray too far, while fiat have a "let's make this and see what happens" approach to car making
 
Fiat make terrible decisions, they have changed their brand logo and identity at least 3 times in the last 20 years. They made some top selling cars like the mk2 punto which was very popular and well received, the. Then made the grande which showed promise but the company seemed to just give up on it and now there virtually is no punto. The revamp of the panda was great and it was/is a great little car, but where is the marketing? Fiat only seem to want to market a car if it's new. Their most recent model the 500x now seems to have reached the end of its marketing budget so the initial good sales will tail off, and yes they did rip off he mini, they freely admit to wanting mini's slice of the market and pitching their cars at potential mini owners, the 500 is popular in that respect but if you're spending £30k on a new mini, why would you look at a £22k 500x that doesn't come with half the options and technology?

It would be much better if like VW they said right fiat is our cheap little car business. Alfa our medium car executive car business (along side Audi as an example) divide the fiat brands up and give them some identity. The decision to remake the spider is an unusual plan and would have been far better aimed at Alfa owners. Jeep seem to make their own brand of quirky little 4x4s now when they have a history of making the likes of the Cherokee and wrangler proper off roaders fiat just want to cash in on the brand rather than remain true to it.

If VW wanted to make a 2 seat sports car they would stick a Porsche badge on it. A supercar gets a Bentley or Bugatti badge. Look at the French car makers they stick to what sells for them and never stray too far, while fiat have a "let's make this and see what happens" approach to car making


All I can say.. If Fiat goes and makes itself bankrupt then so am I.. Starting with £2,500 getting my Pandas shell professionally resorts and turning it into some sort of museum artefact from 'when fiat had its last chance at success' :')

In all seriousness but, I couldn't agree more with your conclusion on their decision making.

Right now, Fiat can be called a budget/cheap brand, a mediocre segment brand and somehow a sports/luxury segment brand with its lineup!? As much as I hate VW, their business sense of using their various badges seems to work. Only thing is I don't think they have a limit on their marketing! Oh those spontaneous naz..GERMAN ENGINEERS ;D
 
They are a strange company really. I was thinking last night about the different Fiat badges over the years. I couldn't tell you which one I prefer.

Fiat were saved by the rebirth of the 500. But haven't managed to replicate it on the same scale. The Panda does okay. But models that followed like Bravo Mk2, Chroma & the 500 spin offs have not faired so well.

The Tipo will follow in their shadows as flopping. It doesn't have the reputation of the Germans, the drivability of a Ford Focus, the reliability of the Japanese or warranty promises of Kia/Hyundai etc. It's design isn't quite as sleek as most of the above, which is a shame. It'll be a reasonable enough car but will be overlooked. Even Renault have got the Megane looking swish with the new model.

They do seem to have given up on The Punto. Trimmed the range right down to 2 engines. The original and Mk2 used to sell a lot. So how they've buggered this one up is anyone's game.

They make a lot of cars but only a limited range in each brand. I think this hurts them. They have to maintain a wider range of dealer brands and can't showcase all of their products under one roof..
 
The Tipo will follow in their shadows as flopping. It doesn't have the reputation of the Germans, the drivability of a Ford Focus, the reliability of the Japanese or warranty promises of Kia/Hyundai etc. It's design isn't quite as sleek as most of the above, which is a shame. It'll be a reasonable enough car but will be overlooked. Even Renault have got the Megane looking swish with the new model.


The Tipo is quite expensive, you could buy two Dacia sandaro's for the price of a bottom of the range Tipo and the options and specs are not that different between the two, the only reason to buy the budget Tipo is because you want a certain sized car but cheap so a money conscious buyer is going to pick a sandaro
 
I didn't say the Tipo was cheap. I've said previously that it didn't look as pleasant as the competition, especially on the interior front.

Dacia has the benefit of platform sharing also. They are a modern Skoda in that the cars are worth more consideration then the badge is associated with. In some Markets they do an RS version of the Sandero !

The Tipo. I can't see their being an Abarth version to take on the likes of the Focus RS, Golf GTI, Pro CeedGT, Megane Sport, Astra VXR (Although the rumour is that this will die a death with the GTC, which they are considering killing) etc. In that sense I think Fiat are being smart. There is probably not enough sales in it to warrant the cost of developing a hot version.

Then again, they do a version of the 500 that costs £30k. So sense may not prevail.:D
 
Trying to summarise Fiat as being a "strange" company is a bit simplistic. You need to know the company's background and recent history to understand some of its decisions.

Fiat was 4th biggest seller in Europe even just a few decades ago, when it used to have getting on 15% of the European market and just under 2 million sales. Half those sales were in Italy.

It's "market" was in small and mid-range (ergo "cheap") cars such as the 127/8, Uno, Panda, Strada.. you name it. It never really did well with bigger cars (130,131,132) .. and in fact it didn't really invest in that sector, since Italy (half its market) wanted small and mid-range cars.

At the end of the Seventies, the Japanese had arrived in force.. followed by Korea, Indonesia and Uzbekistan. These manufacturers brought their own small and mid-range cars which were also "cheap" but crucially had warranties and reliability (relatively). These companies were not "small" start-up producers - the likes of Datsun (Nissan), Mitsubishi, Honda and Hyundai etc. had heavy metal industrial conglomerates behind them. Fiat was just selling a few cars in Italy mostly for low margins. It's now in trouble.

Whilst the German brands (VW, BMW) in particular responded by going more and more "up-market", Fiat couldn't. Half its sales are in Italy. It diversified its range by extensive parts/platform sharing and by developing flexible platforms. Tipo (Mk1) was the first car that could be adapted for different wheel length derivatives on the same production line... and it was a real game changer.

Technically the cars were cheapened by the need to make the margin (Fiat's production was all in Italy.. and if you imagine that's a good landscape to operate a large industrial conglomerate.. look at what happened to the similarly afflicted Renault/Peugeot which nearly went bust and British Leyland which did).

So.. quality declined (relatively), market share declined, profit declined. Uno (1983) kept the company alive through the 1980's. Fiat got into Brazil and still is the market leader there. And Turkey.. making Regattas. Fiat still evolved its platform sharing tech' and expanded it's engine production/technology (FIRE and the FPT factory in Poland). But Brazil and Turkey and selling engines to Vauxhall.. helps the cashflow but does not generate colossal profit.

Meanwhile new models are still chasing the market leaders for quality and technology and positioning.. though arguably the image of Fiat as cheap and cheerful was set in the 1990's.. when Fiat were busy with their production/technology. Alfa had a bit of a resurgence on the back of Tipo (145, 146, 155, GTV, Spider and then 156 and GT.. whilst Fiat got Tempra, Bravo/a and Multipla.. whilst Lancia got Dedra and Delta. All related to Tipo.

That job done, Fiat brought out Punto, which was the only real sales hit.. and again, the cashflow came in handy since Fiat was by now skint again. Other manufacturers merged and got into China. Fiat is now a 1.5M cars a year producer and needs a big tie-up to get volume. It does a reverse-purchase deal with GM and shares some platforms... and also tries ties-up with Peugeot/Citroen (Ulysse). Fiat also (desperately?) look at a Rover tie-up but Rover choose BMW.

Ventures into China and India with whoever doesn't have a European tech' partner prove abortive. The un-partnered local manufacturers are un-partnered for a reason.

After Punto.. we got Stilo and new Bravo. Stilo was a new platform, let down by under-investment in development and ultimately quality. Fiat is skint and needs cars in the showroom more than it needs to match VW Golf quality standards. It's still more reliable though.. :D

Meanwhile Fiat's Polish factory is churning out relatively profitable Cinq's and Sei's even though no other European manufacturer can make more than £100 profit on cars this size. Fiat's deal with GM (GM have to buy Fiat out.. ) falls through. GM doesn't have the cash/doesn't fancy it and has to buy itself out of its contract. Fiat gets enough money to invest in 500.

Meanwhile Alfa wants cash. The GM tie-up produced 159 and Brera but the GM pull-out meant Fiat had to finish these expensive projects alone. Fiat doesn't need this. Fiat has no cash. Still.. they find a way to produce different track and different wheelbase cars on the same production line. Wolfsburg can only dream.

Sergio realizes he needs serious volumes to get out of the cycle of skint followed by a hit model followed by skint... and the best place to find it is with the under-resourced Alfa. He plans to bring out a new 159 and model range.

By now it's 2008.. Fiat has just 1.2M sales from an old model range, although 500 is propping up the balance sheet single-handedly.

Fiat dumps unproductive capacity and looks forward to a new Alfa line-up. Fiat has 500 and GP and Bravo, which is not a bad place to be... but then the recession hits and European sales tank. Sales collapse to 1M and do we need to spend a fortune developing a new model to sell into that rubbish market...?

Stateside, Benz dumps Chrysler and Chrysler goes bankrupt. The US government can "sell it" (i.e. give it away) to anyone who can save it. Anyone who has state of the art platform sharing technology that isn't Japanese. Or German. What about Fiat? Sergio bites Barrack's arm off, to the shoulder.

So.. what does Fiat now need that it doesn't have...? What about cash..? :D The Alfa revival gets canned while Fiat becomes FCA. Bravo/Giulietta becomes Dart and Renegade and 200. Chrysler gets some mojo back and begins a 6 year streak.. each month's sales better than the same month in the previous year. FCA now sells 2.5M cars... it has "volume" and cash for the first time in 40 years.

Sergio also has a dealer network to sell Maserati, Fiat and Alfa in the US. US likes "Made in Italy" .. although Sergio realizes he has no Alfa. The Alfa genesis is on again (Giulia this time.. properly invested) with a whole succession plan rather than just one model every 10 years.

Fiat (mostly Euro' sales which are in the doldrums) is making do with revisions of the 500 and some payback from Turkey (Aegea/Tipo).. Tie-ups with Mazda also providing new models with someone else doing most of the work. Fiat is a bit busy at the moment.

Punto? Probably needed next.. but complicated by the loss of the Mito (canned, since all Alfa's will be belatedly upmarket, made in Italy and RWD). The 500..is still doing well and Fiat is dabbling with some niche stuff/variations on platofrms which must mean it has some confidence/money to try out different ideas...

Next big job will be image and marketing. In all the excitement ^^ there hasn't been much. 500 is cute but every other Fiat breaks down a lot, if it hasn't rusted first, eats your children and causes radiation poisoning in arctic foxes. They're not nice like VWs.. :D

Apart from that.. It's all pretty usual car production stuff.


Ralf S.
 
Last edited:
Trying to summarise Fiat as being a "strange" company is a bit simplistic. You need to know the company's background and recent history to understand some of its decisions.

><><>< Shortened a bit ><><><


Ralf S.

That is one excellent summary of Fiat over the years. You know your stuff about them, the markets and the history. Enjoyed reading that. Looks like perhaps Fiats current 'business' will either make or break them now and for the future! We live in hope!
 
Back
Top