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Training in prison

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Training in prison

x Alex x

x Alex x

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Hi :wave: well someone i know went in prison for a few things such as nicking cars etc... one of those who didnt bother with school, been in prison a little over a year and has come out with an apprenticeship as an electrition, know i know lots of people who have really stuck in at school and never got in to bother with the law but still struggle to get an apprenticeship. i understand it might steer them away from just going back to breaking the law but i think its a bit unfair on those who have tried. whats your views??
 
Alex-R said:
Hi :wave: well someone i know went in prison for a few things such as nicking cars etc... one of those who didnt bother with school, been in prison a little over a year and has come out with an apprenticeship as an electrition, know i know lots of people who have really stuck in at school and never got in to bother with the law but still struggle to get an apprenticeship. i understand it might steer them away from just going back to breaking the law but i think its a bit unfair on those who have tried. whats your views??
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The only thing criminals remember from prison is how to be a better criminal and how not to get cought next time...... :mad:. Really f**ks me off our justice system not really justice tbqfh.
 
Alex-R said:
well i cant can't disagree with "justice system isn't really justice" 1. they get it easy and 2. they never get long enough sentances.
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God, it sounds like a UKIP party meeting here!

a) Britain is crying out for tradespeople- this is why hundreds of thousands of Poles and slovaks have arrived recently.

b) Not long enough sentences?! Depends on the crime, doesn't it? And your point of view.

c) What would you rather they do with convicts? Is teaching them a trade not a good way to ensure that they can get a job/be useful and not re-offend? The recidivism rate goes down substantially when people receive training, counselling and help.

Remember many people in prison have had very limited opportunities in the first place (and no that's not an excuse for crime, but it is a reason to give them a chance to improve).

d) I'm sure prison is really easy though, you are right about that- that'll be why record numbers of inmates are comitting suicide in prisons right now, it'll just be too easy for them to bear!


:bang: :bang: :bang:
 
A similar subject was on TV this morning discussing why prisoners DONT go or want reeducation the answer was a prisoner gets £8 a week for working in education and £12 a week for cleaning the loo's and as most prisoners spend their money on ciggies then they would prefer to clean the loo's the argument was should all prison pat be equal :chin: trouble with this is they all then would want to skive in the education dept and the place would smell like a sh*t hole :)
 
No such problem at Barlinnie in Glasgow- they still "slop out", i.e. you **** in a bucket in your cell. Charming!
Still, saves on people having to clean toilets, more time for education.
 
killyourmama said:
Remember many people in prison have had very limited opportunities in the first place
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More choice that the person that was robbed,attacked,killed,raped or the school leaver with 8 O levels who cant get a job/apprentiship.

I know many people who have nothing (and never have) some have nowhere to live,no job,well educated & intelligent,over 30 years old & the most honest law abiding citizens you will ever meet.They never had well-off parents or were given the opportunities that many of us have had,but they would never even think about turning to crime.
I spent a year living on £5 a week,yes a fiver for all my food/clothes etc,I never thought about crime once (or using it as a excuse) it just made me more determined to get somewhere.......which is debatable seeing where I ended up :D

Lets keep this simple....you do a crime you pay,end of.
 
It would be just training, not a full apprentaship as he won't get his indentures.
 
T14086 said:
More choice that the person that was robbed,attacked,killed,raped or the school leaver with 8 O levels who cant get a job/apprentiship.

I know many people who have nothing (and never have) some have nowhere to live,no job,well educated & intelligent,over 30 years old & the most honest law abiding citizens you will ever meet.They never had well-off parents or were given the opportunities that many of us have had,but they would never even think about turning to crime.
I spent a year living on £5 a week,yes a fiver for all my food/clothes etc,I never thought about crime once (or using it as a excuse) it just made me more determined to get somewhere.......which is debatable seeing where I ended up :D

Lets keep this simple....you do a crime you pay,end of.
Click to expand...


Selective quoting from T14086! Read on the next few words from what you quoted me and I had already said what you made such a song-and-dance about saying, poverty or reduced opportunities are NOT an excuse for crime- but are indisputably a factor. "Lets keep this simple..." if you are going to have undertrained, underskilled and undereducated people stuck somewhere for years at a time- why not teach them to do something worthwhile so that they can contribute to society when they get out?

P.S. How could you spend a year living on £5 a week, what was your situation? Seems a bit extreme. :rolleyes:
 
something to remember, no matter what you do in prison it will still be very hard to get a job when you leave. giving convicts some training 'should' make them more likely and able to get a job when they leave, in the hope they wont be forced back into crime. in reality that bit of paper saying the person is now a qualified electrician is all but worthless. they'll still stuggle to get a job.

is it fair that they should be given the opportunity in the first place? well its more fair on the future victims who've paid for the training with their taxes. plus its better for the economy so we all benefit. so thats as fair as you can get, except it doesnt work so its yet another example of wasted time and money.
 
jug said:
something to remember, no matter what you do in prison it will still be very hard to get a job when you leave. giving convicts some training 'should' make them more likely and able to get a job when they leave, in the hope they wont be forced back into crime. in reality that bit of paper saying the person is now a qualified electrician is all but worthless. they'll still stuggle to get a job.

is it fair that they should be given the opportunity in the first place? well its more fair on the future victims who've paid for the training with their taxes. plus its better for the economy so we all benefit. so thats as fair as you can get, except it doesnt work so its yet another example of wasted time and money.
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Well, there are always people who rip the @rse out of the system in any situation, and people who have no plans to change or better themselves, but I have personally seen and met people (mainly through uni work) who have benefitted from training and a second chance in life. If people don't want to do this they don't have to take the optional education & training programmes, but many people do and why should we deny them that?
 
because we could use the same resources to train other people. if you can train 1 person how do you choose who? personally i'd rather train the person who is most likely to use the training and get a job out of it, and that rules out most of the people in prison.

its not a question of wether they deserve the chance, its simple economics, you have limited resources and you must use them as effectively and efficiently as possible to get the maximum return for the economy. this is an example where the predicted return on this investment has been classed as high because you get 2 great things from the investement, a person has the skills to get a job and contribute to the economy, and at the same time a criminal is more likely to stop commiting crimes, reducing cost to the economy. bargain, except it doesnt work.
 
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The point was made that it's not full and proper training that people get in the outside world, and as such it is relatively cheap to provide, much cheaper than a proper course. I agree with the arguments about the economics, but it also has the added bonus of changing the criminal's behaviour whilst inside the prisons- it's a fact that behaviour improves when they are given somethig to do, and goals to attain, without this many prisons would relapse into far worse drug and violence problems than they already have (& the drug problem is massive in prisons- the effects and aftermath of that probably cost a lot more than any training scheme). So the training begins to pay for itself even before anyone is released.
It also often helps change perspectives, many incarcerated men and women have been institutionalised & have issues in dealing with the "real" world outside and suffer what psychologists call "learned helplessness" when faced with the ordinary world- i.e. their past experience (if any) of normal life is poor/humiliating/menial etc and they have learned in the past that they have very little chace of succeeding in this world, and they quickly remove themselves from this and return to crime, which often brings a sense of empowerment or even revenge. With training and the ability to do something which involves skill, respect etc this can significantly change their attitude and make them less likely to offend.
I'm tempted to dig out some old books and spout figures about recidivism rates- it's starkly clear that inmates given encouragement, social development and training are far less likely to reoffend than those who are not, facts which cannot rwally be argued with.
If we are worried about the public purse and adequate spending thereof I suggest we look to the Trident nuclear weapons system, the war in Iraq, civil service wastage, management systems in hospitals, consultation fees for local and national government, privatisation of national services and industries, legal expenses for political parties.....
 
I reckon bring back corporeal/capital punishment. :D And down with the parliament. Let there be revolution.
 
killyourmama said:
The point was made that it's not full and proper training that people get in the outside world, and as such it is relatively cheap to provide, much cheaper than a proper course. I agree with the arguments about the economics, but it also has the added bonus of changing the criminal's behaviour whilst inside the prisons- it's a fact that behaviour improves when they are given somethig to do, and goals to attain, without this many prisons would relapse into far worse drug and violence problems than they already have (& the drug problem is massive in prisons- the effects and aftermath of that probably cost a lot more than any training scheme). So the training begins to pay for itself even before anyone is released.
It also often helps change perspectives, many incarcerated men and women have been institutionalised & have issues in dealing with the "real" world outside and suffer what psychologists call "learned helplessness" when faced with the ordinary world- i.e. their past experience (if any) of normal life is poor/humiliating/menial etc and they have learned in the past that they have very little chace of succeeding in this world, and they quickly remove themselves from this and return to crime, which often brings a sense of empowerment or even revenge. With training and the ability to do something which involves skill, respect etc this can significantly change their attitude and make them less likely to offend.
I'm tempted to dig out some old books and spout figures about recidivism rates- it's starkly clear that inmates given encouragement, social development and training are far less likely to reoffend than those who are not, facts which cannot rwally be argued with.
If we are worried about the public purse and adequate spending thereof I suggest we look to the Trident nuclear weapons system, the war in Iraq, civil service wastage, management systems in hospitals, consultation fees for local and national government, privatisation of national services and industries, legal expenses for political parties.....
Click to expand...

i agree completely (y)
 
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