StevenRB45 said:

Another company owned by Geely, and shares parts with Volvo so not your usual clever but poorly funded British effort.

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It seems while tesla are very loud and vocal about the future of electric, geely have some 10 years of electric car research and development, and are finally putting it to good use, sneaking it in slowly and under the radar, that said if this taxi is a success then it may hail a big change in public perception of electric vehicles.

AndyRKett said:

Given the running cost of a new car over the years, the technology might be more expensive to start but in the long run it's going to save you so much more. More people can afford a £30k car if they don't have to pay £50 a week in petrol.

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By far the largest part of that £50 is fuel duty and VAT; if the market as a whole goes all-electric, then that tax will have to be recovered from the motorist in other ways. There's no way of marking electricity for road use (as we do with diesel fuel), so my guess is that it will be done by road pricing or some new tax based on mileage driven. In the long term, running costs for EV's will be determined more by fiscal policy than by technology.

The current low per-mile direct operating cost for EV's can't last.

Canny motorists need to have an eye for the bargains; right now, if you only drive short journeys and can charge at home, a secondhand leaf with a partially worn battery bought cheaply might make good economic sense. Their value may drop close to scrap once the cost of battery replacement exceeds the value of the car, and if you can make good use of what's left of the range...

Thinking long term, one fundamental change will likely be a reduction in personal car ownership and use. More than a few folks will ultimately replace their fossil fuelled vehicles with ... nothing. This article is quite old, but interesting nonetheless. A substantial decline in young folk learning to drive is current in the press.

In cities, increased availability of cheaper taxis could be a game changer. Affordable personal transport when you need it, without the fixed costs.

What about people who tow caravans and trailers for example

Now i know electric motors are more than capable of doing so!

Hell tbh they'd probably be better!

But currently no electric cars that i know of yet - can actually get an off shel towbar

So that leaves the hybrids todo the work only?

Ziggy

With the size of most of the caravans I see nowadays (usually towed behind ever-larger SUVs) the achievable range might be a problem. The newer caravans seem to be taller, wider and longer every year. I know they are supposedly using lighter construction, but....

Can't see much benefit in a caravan holiday with really limited range. Might as well hook-up in the garden and pretend.

Could be a reason for even bigger, heavier SUVs to fit the batteries, or maybe the beginning of the end for caravans?

irc said:

With the size of most of the caravans I see nowadays (usually towed behind ever-larger SUVs) the achievable range might be a problem. The newer caravans seem to be taller, wider and longer every year. I know they are supposedly using lighter construction, but....

Can't see much benefit in a caravan holiday with really limited range. Might as well hook-up in the garden and pretend.

Could be a reason for even bigger, heavier SUVs to fit the batteries, or maybe the beginning of the end for caravans?

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i have a feeling it may yes - Kill the market of caravaning....

As if you like me - keep going away for weekends when i can
you need to have a decent range and ability to pull - espically if you end up in derbyshire!

Ziggy

The power side of things is no problem with electric cars at the moment towing a caravan wouldn't be an issue, the range would be the issue but the current model a tesla gives around 300 miles on a charge and using a tesla charging point can (i seem to think) charge the car in 30 minutes which is a motorway service station toilet and coffee break really. There are charging stations at the Euro-tunnel terminals both sides so you could drive down, charge while waiting to board and work your way across the county while utilising the charging stations that are popping up, as more people buy the technology, the more charging stations pop up. When I was a kid growing up we used to stop at motorway services all the time on long journeys, these days kids get plugged into games consoles or DVDs so people don't need to stop so often, however it never used to be an issue to stop, I suspect either people would except it as part of the technology or they will increase the capacity of the batteries till it's no longer an issue, which is likely to happen anyway as the technology gets cheaper.

At the moment the prices of the batteries versus the cost of the car is what decides the range, the model S is a 'luxury' car so they charge £70k for it and can therefore afford a bigger more expensive battery. The new model 3 is £27k and had about two thirds of the range of its bigger brother.

Not at all sure the low slippery shape of a Tesla towing something heavy, wider, twice as high, and with the aerodynamics of a housebrick will get near to that range yet.
Also, even filling up with petrol/diesel at a UK services with a big caravan is already a problem for some non-caravan drivers - they really don't seem to like caravanners. Stopping at one for 30 mins to recharge might work if the recharging area is suitably designed, but... just redirecting caravans to the HGV area might annoy the truckers, and sharing with solo cars will almost certainly annoy the solo car drivers.

Maybe sometime in the future, but hard to see that towing caravans will be a priority design decision in the near future, for car manufacturers or service stop designers.

irc said:

Not at all sure the low slippery shape of a Tesla towing something heavy, wider, twice as high, and with the aerodynamics of a housebrick will get near to that range yet.
Also, even filling up with petrol/diesel at a UK services with a big caravan is already a problem for some non-caravan drivers - they really don't seem to like caravanners. Stopping at one for 30 mins to recharge might work if the recharging area is suitably designed, but... just redirecting caravans to the HGV area might annoy the truckers, and sharing with solo cars will almost certainly annoy the solo car drivers.

Maybe sometime in the future, but hard to see that towing caravans will be a priority design decision in the near future, for car manufacturers or service stop designers.

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Of course it's not likely you'll get 300 miles towing a building behind you, however the range may still get you 150 miles or so which is still better than some current electric cars like the leaf.

That said there is nothing to say future caravans won't incorporate electric car technologies, allowing the caravan to carry additional batteries to maintain the range of the electric car despite the extra weight.

AndyRKett said:

That said there is nothing to say future caravans won't incorporate electric car technologies, allowing the caravan to carry additional batteries to maintain the range of the electric car despite the extra weight.

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But that might mean leaving out essentials like the second TV or the 6-burner barbeque to stay within towing weight. Not sure how popular that would be with the type of caravanner who buys those monsters ?

irc said:

But that might mean leaving out essentials like the second TV or the 6-burner barbeque to stay within towing weight.

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Given the torque that electric cars have, the extra weight won't slow them down much, it really all comes down to range.

[ame]https://youtu.be/ib-02b2ooLY[/ame]

Yeah, but a couple of tons of out-of-control battery-pack laden mobile apartment block taking control of the tow-car could definitely scratch some paint.

Don't get me wrong - I like electric cars. They are very good at city driving. Some are also pretty good at long straight roads.
I think they are probably less good on country lanes with loads of potholes and unbridged fords, but time will tell on this.

Theoretically they would be good for pulling heavy trailers because of the power delivery characteristics.

Not at all sure about a weight "arms race" to get more range. As far as I am concerned there are enough bad drivers already with overweight cars capable of causing massive damage to anything that gets in their way (check out your local scrapyard for superminis hit up the rear by inattentive SUV drivers).
Making heavier & bigger cars so these jokers can travel further does not seem like a step forward to me.

irc said:

Yeah, but a couple of tons of out-of-control battery-pack laden mobile apartment block taking control of the tow-car could definitely scratch some paint.

Don't get me wrong - I like electric cars. They are very good at city driving. Some are also pretty good at long straight roads.
I think they are probably less good on country lanes with loads of potholes and unbridged fords, but time will tell on this.

Theoretically they would be good for pulling heavy trailers because of the power delivery characteristics.

Not at all sure about a weight "arms race" to get more range. As far as I am concerned there are enough bad drivers already with overweight cars capable of causing massive damage to anything that gets in their way (check out your local scrapyard for superminis hit up the rear by inattentive SUV drivers).
Making heavier & bigger cars so these jokers can travel further does not seem like a step forward to me.

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This appears to be an evolving argument rather than coherent.

You talk about towing and it is perfectly possible for electric cars to perform well in towing tasks, but now it's about the weight of the car...

Well the average tesla model s (given this is the best example to use) weighs about 2 tons (2000kg) which yes is a lot more than an average car but it's also worth bearing in mind it's a luxury car with 7 seats a boot front and back and ample space inside as well as all mod cons, then doesn't seam all that heavy (say compared to a BMW 5 series, which is an equivalent car at 1900kg)

The Nissan Leaf is about 1500kg compared to a say a golf at 1400-1500kg the weight doesn't need to be that much greater, what I said above is you can load a modern caravan with a battery pack to offset any loss of Range with an electric car, perfectly do-able and yes would add to the weigh of the whole train, but is not going to be overly significant. As mentioned before, as the technology becomes more common the weight will come down and allow for bigger, not necessarily heavier or physically bigger batteries, bigger as in a higher capacity.

Looks like we'll all be driving vans then! Especially everyone who lives in the countryside, although with the current building programme, houses on green belt, the countryside will become attached to the cities anyway.

Just had a thought. Any criminal just needs a fully charged car to outrun any police car if its been on patrol more than 30 minutes.

Mini announced their all electric model to be built in the UK as of 2019

Electric Mini to be built in Oxford
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40718892

Well this was certainly unexpected, having only recently launched their first ever Diesel engine in a Maserati they now totally change tack and are now going for full electrification.



Marchionne: Maserati to ‘switch all of its portfolio to electrification’ - Autoblog
https://apple.news/Am7PREq5YSGGcCgiHb8hmJQ

That's quite a big step for a company that has yet to bring out a hybrid or electric car.

You could argue La Ferrari is a hybrid but then again it's not part of the fiat stable anymore and costs a million quid.


Apparently reading further down the article, fiat's plan was to move much of its technology over to diesel power as a way of reducing its group emissions, however given the current situation with diesel they have been left floundering behind as other companies stride forward with hybrid and electric tech.

The irony is they've just brought out an unnecessary SUV made a great deal of its powerful petrol and Diesel engines and now they've said it's next incarnation will have to be a hybrid.

Because fiat are so behind on this stuff they don't expect these new generation cars to be out before 2020. When in 3 more years the motoring world could have changed a lot.

Soon, we will not be able to walk the streets at night, for fear of tripping over all the charging cables. So many terraced houses, cables trailing everywhere.
And won't be able to go out for an evening in the car either, as a late return would prevent a journey to work and back next day due to insufficient charge.

So many details to fix before 2040.

portland_bill said:

And won't be able to go out for an evening in the car either, as a late return would prevent a journey to work and back next day due to insufficient charge.

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... driving home after an evening out in winter, only to have a thick fog descend, crawling back up the mountain at walking pace, blowers, lights wipers all on full, wondering if the battery will hold out another 3 kilometres?

portland_bill said:

Soon, we will not be able to walk the streets at night, for fear of tripping over all the charging cables. So many terraced houses, cables trailing everywhere.
And won't be able to go out for an evening in the car either, as a late return would prevent a journey to work and back next day due to insufficient charge.

So many details to fix before 2040.

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There are so many questions with the broad statement "ban petrol and diesel new car sales by 2040" What about hybrids? Plug in only? If non-plug in how big does the battery & motor have to be? What about other ICE fuels Alcohol, LPG or hydrogen?


More importantly where is the power going to come from?
There are 36 million cars on the road in the UK. If half of those are electric (in 2040) and need a 20kW charge each night (a Tesla S is 60-80kW for full charge, my short work commute would see 8kW in a Leaf) That's 0.02MW x 18,000,000 = 360,000 MW. The current UK generation capacity is 347,000MW WRONG! Thanks Andy I misread table. It's more like 60-80,000 MW (60-80GW). The electric supply and grid would have to be 4.5 times larger! A large nuclear reactor generates 500 MW- 1000MW (thanks again Andy) per reactors even allowing for a factor of 3 (not all cars will be charged at the same time and some daytime capacity can be used, but some plants will be down for maintenance) we would need 100-200 new nuclear reactors. I don't see those on the long term plan!


Robert G8RPI.