Is the proposed Diesel scrapage scheme a Con?

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Is the proposed Diesel scrapage scheme a Con?

Whilst petrol isn't going to solve the problem, it eliminates all the problems around Diesel engines.


Petrol cars still emit NOx and particulates so no doesn't solve that problem at all.

People drive smaller cars when they need a smaller car. They drive bigger cars when they need a bigger car to say it's all down to ego is a vast sweeping generalisation. Shock horror some people even need a 4x4!
 
Around 15 years ago the VED/CAR TAX/ RFL WAS proposed to be scrapped.

Saying they would up the price of fuel to compensate..and youd pay ..according to your fuel useage.

Then TAX went up..and fuel went up also.

Ive got a panda and seicento for running around , and a diesel estate for loads/ journeys..(previously was a diesel camper.)

IF you paid for what you used..I would be so much better off..as would the planet..

(Taxing derv. Would make the cost of all goods rocket..

'If you've got it.. a truck brought it..')
 
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<SNIP> And the myth that their somehow cheaper to run.

<SNIP>...


What Myth? I've run a mixture of petrol and diesel vehicles for over 30 years (my second car was a diesel Astra back in the 80's) and diesels are most definitely cheaper to run. They also have longer life (perceived and real) that compensates for the higher purchase cost. At one time I was driving the petrol and diesel versions of the same car at the same time (one for work)This is even true with inflated diesel fuel prices.
Diesels have better fuel economy, lower servicing costs and often lower insurance. At one point running a small diesel literally more than paid for itself in fuel savings over my petrol alone when I was doing a long commute for two years.

Robert G8RPI.
 
Higher servicing and repair costs. DPF issues and the expense that comes with them. More expensive suspension parts due to the heavier weight. Often a few thousand more over the petrol engines to buy. Usually a few pence more at the pumps.

Maybe the first diesels were more like tanks .. but today it's an illusion alright.

Think of the very first engines and cars. Such breakthroughs. They got better and better over time. But lately.. idiots have been changing and adding things that they clearly have no idea about .. tampering with things and making them more complex, and not always with benefits.. the real engineers and inventors would probably be ashamed to think of what they're doing.
 
One issue that I have not got my head around is the concept of a tonne of crude produces lighter petrol and heavier diesel and fuel oil. If the diesel is not used in cars /lorries where will it be used? Will there be enough petrol to fuel the all of the vehicles? There is massive heavyweight economics behind this which may well tend to govern.
Does any one have knowledge on the supply side of this issue?
 
One issue that I have not got my head around is the concept of a tonne of crude produces lighter petrol and heavier diesel and fuel oil. If the diesel is not used in cars /lorries where will it be used? Will there be enough petrol to fuel the all of the vehicles? There is massive heavyweight economics behind this which may well tend to govern.

Does any one have knowledge on the supply side of this issue?


Isn't it a matter of refining the crude oil into more petrol rather than refining it into diesel?

All of this stuff will happen gradually. Maybe even over 20 years or more. Not overnight.

We'll all have time to decide what we buy... in my opinion, in a few years only idiots will buy diesel knowing what we know now.
 
Higher servicing
An oil and filter change costs no more than a petrol car. A fuel filter is £10 and needs changing no more often than spark plugs or HT Leads.

and repair costs.
An engine is an engine, doesn't matter what fuel it runs on a valve will cost the same as will an injector or a fuel pump there is very little difference in repair costs


DPF issues and the expense that comes with them.
And the end of the world is nigh !!

Seriously though if used properly and not chugging around town for 5 years without ever doing more than 5 miles per trip, you'll never have a problem.

Our last mini did 70k miles not even aware if it ever needed to regenerate the DPF.


More expensive suspension parts due to the heavier weight.
A load of rubbish, same parts made in the same factory a spring is a spring and shock no matter what it's fitted to is still a shock the manufacturing process is the same.

If they can make too parts that are essentially the same that do the same thing, but one costs less to make, then they are more likely to put the retail price up on the cheaper part knowing that people are already prepared to pay the extra.

Often a few thousand more over the petrol engines to buy.
Yep and will sell for a lot more as well, a diesel will cost £1-2k more than its petrol equivalent which usually 10% more perhaps for an average car but ones it's a few years old it will still be worth 10% more than a petrol car of the same age and have saved a lot of money in fuel.


Usually a few pence more at the pumps.
A couple of pence at the pump is nothing when it's getting you 20mpg more on the road. Oh and of course much lower tax.

Think of the very first engines and cars. Such breakthroughs. They got better and better over time. But lately.. idiots have been changing and adding things that they clearly have no idea about .. tampering with things and making them more complex, and not always with benefits.. the real engineers and inventors would probably be ashamed to think of what they're doing.


Idiots ?? You mean the highly trained engineered and designers who have years of collective experience and expertise. The people with billions in R&D money to develop build and test the future generations of engines?

Go back 30 years and the engines of that time were cutting edge but by today's standards they're terrible. And real innovator or engineer from 30 years ago would be amazed what we're able to do now that they could never do with the technology of the time.
 
An oil and filter change costs no more than a petrol car. A fuel filter is £10 and needs changing no more often than spark plugs or HT Leads.


An engine is an engine, doesn't matter what fuel it runs on a valve will cost the same as will an injector or a fuel pump there is very little difference in repair costs



And the end of the world is nigh !!

Seriously though if used properly and not chugging around town for 5 years without ever doing more than 5 miles per trip, you'll never have a problem.

Our last mini did 70k miles not even aware if it ever needed to regenerate the DPF.



A load of rubbish, same parts made in the same factory a spring is a spring and shock no matter what it's fitted to is still a shock the manufacturing process is the same.

If they can make too parts that are essentially the same that do the same thing, but one costs less to make, then they are more likely to put the retail price up on the cheaper part knowing that people are already prepared to pay the extra.


Yep and will sell for a lot more as well, a diesel will cost £1-2k more than its petrol equivalent which usually 10% more perhaps for an average car but ones it's a few years old it will still be worth 10% more than a petrol car of the same age and have saved a lot of money in fuel.



A couple of pence at the pump is nothing when it's getting you 20mpg more on the road. Oh and of course much lower tax.




Idiots ?? You mean the highly trained engineered and designers who have years of collective experience and expertise. The people with billions in R&D money to develop build and test the future generations of engines?

Go back 30 years and the engines of that time were cutting edge but by today's standards they're terrible. And real innovator or engineer from 30 years ago would be amazed what we're able to do now that they could never do with the technology of the time.



Heavier metals, high pressure injectors all cost more.

Look in parts catalogues for a Panda.. more costly parts for 4x4 and MultiJet models. Same for cars like the Corsa, diesel suspension components cost marginally more.

Look at used Pandas.. diesel ones can cost less sometimes! Definitely not thousands in all cases...

Again, lots of people who covered 100k miles on a diesel in the first 3 years.. still having DPF problems. So there's a flaw in that too..
 
Higher servicing and repair costs. DPF issues and the expense that comes with them. More expensive suspension parts due to the heavier weight. Often a few thousand more over the petrol engines to buy. Usually a few pence more at the pumps.

Maybe the first diesels were more like tanks .. but today it's an illusion alright.

Think of the very first engines and cars. Such breakthroughs. They got better and better over time. But lately.. idiots have been changing and adding things that they clearly have no idea about .. tampering with things and making them more complex, and not always with benefits.. the real engineers and inventors would probably be ashamed to think of what they're doing.

I don't agree on higher service or repair costs. Yes, differences in reliability have narrowed as both petrol and diesel cars have migrated towards electronic control and fuel injection, but generally diesels are more reliable. I've only had a diesel stop on me when driving once in 30 years and that was an electrical fault. I've lost count of the number of petrol failures and I've probably done more miles in diesels.
Springs for diesel version of cars don't cost more than the petrol in my experience, but a set of platinum sparks plugs is a notable cost.


Robert G8RPI.
 
Thanks for the response - it got me looking into the matter a bit more deeply. I found this info on an ACEA document.
Petrol is made of a mix of alkanes and cycloalkanes with a chain length of between 5-12 carbon atoms. These boil between 40°C and 205°C
Gas oil or Diesel is made alkanes containing 12 or more carbon atoms. These have a boiling point between 250°C and 350°C
After distillation, there are various techniques that are used to convert some fractions to others:

cracking, which breaking large hydrocarbon chains into smaller ones
unification – which combines smaller hydrocarbon chains to make larger ones
alteration – which re-arranges various isomers to make desired hydrocarbons
For example, this allows a refinery to turn diesel fuel into petrol fuel, depending on the demand for petrol. Refineries will also combine various fractions (processed, unprocessed) into mixtures to make desired products. For example, different mixtures of hydrocarbon chains can create petrols with different octane ratings.

I found at also that in a 42 gallon barrel roughly 19 galls is gasoline and 12 gallons Diesel. So - at a cost - it appears that the some of the diesel can be converted into gasoline to increase gasoline availability and move away from diesel. ACEA reported approximately 52% diesel and 45 % gasoline in 2015 so there does seem to be scope for a fair swing in the proportions in the future. When I were a lad there were no diesel cars essentially so I guess a good swing away from where we are now is feasible.
 
Thanks for the response - it got me looking into the matter a bit more deeply. I found this info on an ACEA document.
Petrol is made of a mix of alkanes and cycloalkanes with a chain length of between 5-12 carbon atoms. These boil between 40°C and 205°C
Gas oil or Diesel is made alkanes containing 12 or more carbon atoms. These have a boiling point between 250°C and 350°C
After distillation, there are various techniques that are used to convert some fractions to others:

cracking, which breaking large hydrocarbon chains into smaller ones
unification – which combines smaller hydrocarbon chains to make larger ones
alteration – which re-arranges various isomers to make desired hydrocarbons
For example, this allows a refinery to turn diesel fuel into petrol fuel, depending on the demand for petrol. Refineries will also combine various fractions (processed, unprocessed) into mixtures to make desired products. For example, different mixtures of hydrocarbon chains can create petrols with different octane ratings.

I found at also that in a 42 gallon barrel roughly 19 galls is gasoline and 12 gallons Diesel. So - at a cost - it appears that the some of the diesel can be converted into gasoline to increase gasoline availability and move away from diesel. ACEA reported approximately 52% diesel and 45 % gasoline in 2015 so there does seem to be scope for a fair swing in the proportions in the future. When I were a lad there were no diesel cars essentially so I guess a good swing away from where we are now is feasible.



I think with the power of taxes and regulations the government can influence us whatever way they want and there's precious little we can do about it.

However, there's normally good logic involved so I have faith on whatever is decided.

I can see why they wanted a switch to diesel many years ago but I'm happy to hear that after giving it a go they've decided it'll not be continuing. Again. Good reasons involved.

People seem to get quite upset at the thought of it, but that's how it is
 
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