So , regarding all the 'You're killing us with naughty fumes' hoo ha and the like what are everyone's opinion on diesel engines now? For example , would it be foolish to purchase a diesel over petrol or do you think we'll have a few more years to really wallow in our shame? Lol...only ask as I'm contemplating swapping my twinair for a multijet.

I do 20,000 miles a year, give or take and have three kids. It has to be diesel for me as the sums add up. If we had two cars in our family it might be a different story though...

Well, the wind certainly seems to be 'blowing in the wrong direction' for diesel cars.

Paris is aiming to ban them from 2020, and London may well do the same. Boris Johnson appears to have 'declared war' on diesel cars, as a way of combating increasingly poor air quality. And of course the VW scandal has not exactly helped either, although the move against diesel actually pre-dates it.

It seems very likely that future budgets will now be much less kind to diesel drivers (higher fuel duty and VED rates) than has been the case up to now, and we might even end up with a 'scrappage scheme' to get diesel cars off the road.

On the plus side, second-hand diesel prices are likely to plummet (there is already evidence of this for VW cars), although obviously that's only good news if you want to buy, and not so good if you already own one.

The other problem is that diesel cars are likely to be increasingly seen as socially irresponsible/unacceptable/uncool: I recently saw a VW Passat TDI estate on which someone had used their finger to add the words 'diesel killer' in the sooty grime on the tailgate...

Short answer: if you can live with all that, and can get the car you want at a really good price - then go for it! Maybe you could get round the growing social stigma by de-badging it?

I do 20k miles p.a. too, much of it in a petrol/electric hybrid that does a genuine 65+ mpg (even around town, and on sub 10-mile journeys - where diesels are at their least efficient), but most of the rest of it in a 2.4 litre Stilo with useless emissions but loads of fun!

We all make our own choices...

I do 18k miles a year and my wife does the same, we both drive diesels (one of them an unaffected by diesel scandal vw golf) my argument is do what is right for you, not everyone has the luxury of being super efficient and green, most people just want low motoring costs.

Currently a diesel car is still generally cheaper to tax and run than a petrol and new proposed car tax system doesn't come in till 2017 on only new cars and will just level the playing field.

Higher tax rates on diesel effects everyone as it pushes up food and transport costs. So despite all the scaremongering don't expects diesel prices to rocket any time soon.

What this thread will turn into is a petrol versus diesel argument for which there are never any winners as both are just as bad as one another, and the Eco-warriors in electric and hybrid cars may argue they are holier than thou but their lithium filled batteries do far more to damage the environment than a few barrels of oil.

So do what makes most sense to you. Just bare in mind that these days a multiair is a ticking time bomb of expensive breakdowns from the overly complex timing system

I find it amusing that some governments have suddenly realised diesels out put a load of nasty stuff and in city stop/start traffic that really isn't doing the population any good. Japan banned of diesels from Tokyo back in 2000 so 15 years later London has noticed.

Diesels have their place, particularly for going long distances or where torque is required (Lorries, trains, ships). The general population moving to diesels cars (not just those doing big mileages) have been driven by government policy of taxing based on CO2 and the Global Warning hype machine. Global warming is a real thing, bad for just about everyone but CO2 is only one of a number of warming gasses and shifting on mass from petrol to diesel isn't the answer.

Right now I have a car which is classed as being worse than many and get clobbered with high tax. Yet I cycle or get the bus to work and average 5k miles a year (mostly weekend on motorways or A roads). Someone with a "green" car (diesel with 99g per KM of CO2) pays no road tax but can quite possibly drive 10k miles a year in stop/start city traffic and therefore do far more environmental damage than I.

If the government was serious about solving our city air quality issues it would spend a bit on proper segregated cycle lanes and force large employers to provide cycle parking and changing facilities in workplaces. It would also do far more to promote walking/cycling to school and improve public transport options.

colin79666 said:

I find it amusing that some governments have suddenly realised diesels out put a load of nasty stuff and in city stop/start traffic that really isn't doing the population any good. Japan banned of diesels from Tokyo back in 2000 so 15 years later London has noticed.

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No they didn't, Tokyo just like London already does and has done for years just regulate vehicle emissions including diesels and many busses trucks and vans are still all diesel, Japan as a whole stuck to petrol cars, most likely due to fuel taxes and legislation, but they didn't ban diesels at all.

colin79666 said:

Diesels have their place, particularly for going long distances or where torque is required (Lorries, trains, ships). The general population moving to diesels cars (not just those doing big mileages) have been driven by government policy of taxing based on CO2 and the Global Warning hype machine. Global warming is a real thing, bad for just about everyone but CO2 is only one of a number of warming gasses and shifting on mass from petrol to diesel isn't the answer.

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It was useful for the uk government (and many other European governments) to help drop there CO2 emissions quickly.

colin79666 said:

Right now I have a car which is classed as being worse than many and get clobbered with high tax. Yet I cycle or get the bus to work and average 5k miles a year (mostly weekend on motorways or A roads). Someone with a "green" car (diesel with 99g per KM of CO2) pays no road tax but can quite possibly drive 10k miles a year in stop/start city traffic and therefore do far more environmental damage than I.

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You don't pay tax on the amount you use your car and that has never been the case, yes someone may use their car more than you but they will pay a great deal more in fuel duty.

colin79666 said:

If the government was serious about solving our city air quality issues it would spend a bit on proper segregated cycle lanes and force large employers to provide cycle parking and changing facilities in workplaces. It would also do far more to promote walking/cycling to school and improve public transport options.

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Depending on where I'm working on any given day I can travel between 25 - 55 miles to work and back again, no matter how many changing rooms and cycle parks they provide, I'm not getting on a bike and neither will the majority of those who currently drive.

It is interesting that Boris is banning all diesels. The latest models with selective catalysts and DPFs hve fewer emissions than direct injection petrol engined cars. Regulation should be emissions based not blanket bans or requirements.

g8rpi said:

It is interesting that Boris is banning all diesels. The latest models with selective catalysts and DPFs hve fewer emissions than direct injection petrol engined cars. Regulation should be emissions based not blanket bans or requirements.

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The deputy Mayor of London said today that it's not going to happen any time soon, due to the huge economic problems it would cause.

g8rpi said:

It is interesting that Boris is banning all diesels. The latest models with selective catalysts and DPFs hve fewer emissions than direct injection petrol engined cars. Regulation should be emissions based not blanket bans or requirements.

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Some bed time reading

Firstly early Direct injection petrols weren't optimised for particulate reduction and could be. Second you can fit a DPF well PPF if you need to, except the higher exhaust temps will mean it should be less of a liability.

AndyRKett said:

I do 18k miles a year and my wife does the same, we both drive diesels (one of them an unaffected by diesel scandal vw golf) my argument is do what is right for you, not everyone has the luxury of being super efficient and green, most people just want low motoring costs.

Currently a diesel car is still generally cheaper to tax and run than a petrol and new proposed car tax system doesn't come in till 2017 on only new cars and will just level the playing field.

Higher tax rates on diesel effects everyone as it pushes up food and transport costs. So despite all the scaremongering don't expects diesel prices to rocket any time soon.

What this thread will turn into is a petrol versus diesel argument for which there are never any winners as both are just as bad as one another, and the Eco-warriors in electric and hybrid cars may argue they are holier than thou but their lithium filled batteries do far more to damage the environment than a few barrels of oil.

So do what makes most sense to you. Just bare in mind that these days a multiair is a ticking time bomb of expensive breakdowns from the overly complex timing system

Click to expand...

Overall I agree, although hmgov could simply move commercials and public service vehicles onto red diesel. This would reduce goods costs and make public transport cheaper..then recoup the lost tax by hammering private cars.

I buy on personal preference, I'd prefer to pay more in fuel not to have diesel characteristics. If I did more than 8k a year I may reconsider.

StevenRB45 said:

Overall I agree, although hmgov could simply move commercials and public service vehicles onto red diesel. This would reduce goods costs and make public transport cheaper..then recoup the lost tax by hammering private cars.

I buy on personal preference, I'd prefer to pay more in fuel not to have diesel characteristics. If I did more than 8k a year I may reconsider.

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There is no way they would move vans, trucks and buses on to red diesel, they could have done that many years ago if they'd wanted and they generate a huge amount of revenue from this sector.

If I only did 8k miles a year then I'd reconsider running diesels

AndyRKett said:

There is no way they would move vans, trucks and buses on to red diesel, they could have done that many years ago if they'd wanted and they generate a huge amount of revenue from this sector.

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Not so sure, many years ago there were no alternatives to pure ICE cars. With each generation electric cars are getting better they are no longer the novelty they once were. Today in one 80 mile round trip I saw a Golf GTE (those DRLs are very conspicuous and rather awful), any number of Leafs, two Tesla p85ds and a Renault Zoe.

They could pitch it as an environmental move, whack the duty up on petrol and diesel to encourage plug in hybrid and pure electric, while stimulating the road transport and public transport areas.

The only fully electric car on the market that would suit my car use would be a Tesla Model S. It's sad that only Tesla seem to see the "direction" we need to take as a species and our dependence on fossil fuels.

Just a shame I'd have to work 90hours a week to be able to afford one.

StevenRB45 said:

Not so sure, many years ago there were no alternatives to pure ICE cars. With each generation electric cars are getting better they are no longer the novelty they once were. Today in one 80 mile round trip I saw a Golf GTE (those DRLs are very conspicuous and rather awful), any number of Leafs, two Tesla p85ds and a Renault Zoe.



They could pitch it as an environmental move, whack the duty up on petrol and diesel to encourage plug in hybrid and pure electric, while stimulating the road transport and public transport areas.

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This is the same government that's removed the subsidies for wind and solar energy, while brokering deals to build dirty great Chinese nuclear power stations.... I can't see that green energy is exactly high on there priorities.

ChrisUK said:

The only fully electric car on the market that would suit my car use would be a Tesla Model S. It's sad that only Tesla seem to see the "direction" we need to take as a species and our dependence on fossil fuels.

Just a shame I'd have to work 90hours a week to be able to afford one.

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It's one of those things though, think of computers 20 years ago think of them now, think of old electric cars, think of them now. Early adopters always pay more but once the initial research has been done and paid for and economies of scale take effect I'd be very surprised if cars with the capabilities of the model S weren't available at half the current sticker price in 10 years. While the equivalent of the model S will be even better.

A Leaf/BMW I3 could already deal with most of my usage. Although as we're a 2 car family probably keep an ICE car for long distances as they aren't there yet. i
If I got a golf GTE I could run it 99% electric only due to an 8 mile commute.

Regards whether the government would do it, they might they might not but it's no longer as far fetched as it once was that they might try and influence behaviour with taxation and tax breaks it wouldn't be the first time.

Paddynabs said:

I do 20,000 miles a year, give or take and have three kids. It has to be diesel for me as the sums add up. If we had two cars in our family it might be a different story though...

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Sums add up at 20k a year? Interesting, as I worked out I was at only break even at 20k a year in a diesel over a petrol.

Never like diesel myself, had one for 2 years, but the smell and fuelling process was nasty. But each to their own.

I've quickly scanned this thread an don't think I've seen this point made. If it has then I apologise.

Diesel engines (forget all the electronics, common rail, high pressure injection etc) run best and cleanest at defined load and RPM. Think ships running for many 1000s of miles at 20 knots, and long trans continental/country trains and trucks that chug along pretty much uninterrupted for 1000s of mile.

Here in the UK the longest non stop, constant load and speed run (assuming no other traffic and no speed limit variations) is 600 odd miles.

Now for the other equation. Emissions. These have and will be tighter and tighter as time goes on. To clean up a diesel engine requires the technology I said forget about above, and this adds serious cost and difficulty which (assuming you don't cheat like VW) can and only does add huge costs not only to the initial purchase price but actually the long term running costs are substantially increased. Expensive DPF filters, horrendously expensive diesel injectors, EGR issues etc.

Personally having driven and maintained Fiat cars for 43 years I've only had the one diesel car (Croma 2005) and it did not deliver the fuel economy it was marketed at and for self maintenance, complexity, etc. as much as I loved the car it fell outside of my comfort and potential future maintenance cost profile.

My personal opinion (based on I believe fair judgements/evaluations) is that the diesel powered car is really only an option for high commercial company transport. They dump their cars every 3 years taking all the tax advantages. Most/many don't give a toss about the environment but are more interested in the business bottom line.

For the likes of every UK/other private family then our vehicles are not funded by the business, we have to keep them for many years, and some will have a concern for the environment/their children.

Finally I accept that certain car vehicle users (caravan pullers, horse box pullers, etc.) do benefit from the pulling power of diesel engines.

BUT NOTE THIS!

My 500X 1.4 Turbo MultiAir engine produces 72% of the torque of my Fiat 1.9 16V MultiJet 150BHP diesel engine at 250rpm less! And at 10BHP less (140vs150) and similar MPG then IMHO it is for me a winner over my 1.9L diesel engine.

As for towing:

Croma 1.9 Diesel returned over a 2000 mile towing and 1000 mile unloaded trip and average of 30mpg.

500X 1.4 over a much reduced travel distance where nearly 100% of the mileage was towing based (and running in etc) returned over 26MPG. I'm expecting this to improve but it won't be until July next year I'll be able to categorically compare almost identical 3000 mile journeys.

Finally ..... Diesel is the cheapest to produce by far yet the forecourt price differential is minimal. I recall reading that many of the Arabian oil producing companies (probably because they don't use it) could not give diesel away as it was not worth their while creating the separate production facilities to produce it.

All food for thought and please don't flame me

s130 said:

Diesel engines (forget all the electronics, common rail, high pressure injection etc) run best and cleanest at defined load and RPM. Think ships running for many 1000s of miles at 20 knots, and long trans continental/country trains and trucks that chug along pretty much uninterrupted for 1000s of mile.

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I agree entirely. I've never owned a diesel because I've never had to do that sort of long-haul/steady speed driving on any kind of a regular basis. I'd develop this thought, by suggesting:

1. Long haul, fixed speed, few short journeys? = diesel
2. Medium-haul, mixed driving conditions? = petrol
3. Short-haul, low speed, stop-start? = electric
4. Equal amounts of (2) and (3)? = petrol/electric hybrid (until battery technology improves)

So, nothing's perfect and you take your choice...

Alfettaman said:

So, nothing's perfect and you take your choice...

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And here in lies the problem. Miss selling, biased marketing and the general public's real lack of understanding of how petrol, diesel, electric, steam or even solar powered vehicles actually work and perform over vast operating profiles that most UK/European/other motorist actually (no some dreamt up profile) drive under.

Thankfully at least (thus far) one motor industry player has been caught out "cooking the books" and cheating. Others may follow, and if they don't then VW deserved to go bust and all executives jailed for 10 years each at a minimum. If other follow then lets do 5 years each!

You an I could easily get 5 years for knowingly defrauding somebody out of £100. The size of your wallet sadly determines in most cases your ability to get real justice. I'm fairly certain they VW/other executives will walk away free of all implications/charges...........

Diesel bashing is all fair and well.......but has anybody actually thought about the fact that diesel engines weren't actually originally designed to run on what we call diesel ?
Diesel engines were originally designed to run on peanut oil, and if kept to original designs will run on engine oil that has been run through a filter. The US military diesel vehicles will run on filtered engine oil.
A diesel running on peanut oil is very clean, its just a shame the oil companies have all the say on what engines run on.
I've always said if ANY government was serious about emissions then hydrogen fuelled vehicles would be getting serious investment, after all Honda are already producing Hydrogen powered cars that are on sale in the US.
Public transport is a joke, I know as I drive buses for a living, and most buses just say manage 9-11 mpg. So when buses are running empty especially after 7 pm where I live, just ask yourself how "environmentally friendly" are they really ??? Burning fuel, wear on 6 tyres, brake linings, composite wood floors that rot out and also the oil and coolant they need topping up every single day !
The only way to "save the planet" is for the modern world to be stopped and everyone going back a few thousand years, and living in caves and mud huts.
The whole pollution/environmental debate is a joke, if you use modern technology and live a modern life then you are no better than someone who drives a diesel vehicle.
Look at every single thing in your house and life and ask yourself, how pollution/ environmentally friendly is that.....break things down and it may shock you.
Its just a matter of fact of whether you admit it to yourself or not, and if you can ignore the so called do gooders who are really no better than you !
Sorry for the rant but the constant battering we get in the news etc gets my back up, after all just a few hundred years ago life expectancy was 30-40 max. Now they are saying we are getting killed off early when life expectancy is now 70+ !!! If you ask me its a whole load of tosh so the governments can tax us more and stop the " peasants" having any money and maybe getting above their stations !