It appears the forum likes a debate at the moment so I thought I'd pose a question, well several questions around a theme.

This inspired partly by me having a Saturday morning blast in my own car (see my mm thread for thoughts) and partly by a thread appearing on piston heads yesterday.

We all know modern cars are scientifically better than old ones in every measurable way. Fiats no longer dissolve after 3 years, Ford finally stopped using the Anglia engine in the early 00s. In most cases you no longer have to get up earlier on a wet morning in case your car decides it's gonna be a dick today. You can have a reasonably large shunt and not die, you have a much better chance of not being involved in the shunt to begin with.

So why is a driving no longer the event it once was? Partly I suspect because I'm now the wrong side of 30...but I also suspect it's due to cars being so capable everything is a none event. Back in my MK1 days going round a roundabout at speed (well 35 ish) in the wet was epic battle between man and machine, whereas now I can see it's wet but the car doesn't really seem to notice.

In my opinion 2.0 TDI will decimate a hot hatch from the 80s or 90s on a back road, even of it doesn't have the outright speed the advances in brakes, suspension and tyres would make the difference, which makes me a little sad.

This brings me to Modern hot hatches and performance cars...I was at one point looking at getting an MPS in a few years, but I don't see the point any more. If the bottom of the range has limits so high you need to actively provoke the car with stupid driving to get a reaction then the limits at the top range must be ridiculous. Yes they have huge amounts of speed but how often can you use it without risking your license? How fast would you have to be going to get near the limits of Golf R on public roads? You may like that, in the same way as people like roller coasters, just sitting back in amazement while the car summons untold G force and speed at your command, if so put your case forward!

I'm not saying "weren't things better in the old days?" I had a Carby 4 speed Uno as my first car, you could not pay me enough to use that daily again (sorry uno/panda owners)

So when you come to power would you go back to the old days? Or are you happy with measurably brilliant if a bit dull? Am I talking drivel? If not what was the sweet spot between modernism and the old days?

They are just a reflection of our life in general - a constantly adapting evolution in response to circumstances - be they fuel prices, legal threats, health and safety etc.
It is similar to F1, which is supposed to be the pinnacle of race engineering, but then we complain because almost all the variables have been pre - empted and therefore the outcome is usually predictable.
I look back at my old Vauxhall Firenza which I thought for me, with what I could afford, was the dog's doo dah's, but compared with now it was slow, thirsty and handled atrociously.
I had an Impreza turbo which I got rid of - partly because owning one at one stage actually put your home security at grave risk, but also becuase I realised that to make the car worthwhile you had to be pretty much breaking the law in it, or at least driving like a nutter.
My current daily - a Seat Exeo 2.0 Tdi 143bhp is fast enough, very economical, comfortable, but I can barely rouse my self to wash it. It is totally character-less. But then what is character? Let's you down? Handles like Bambi on ice? Makes you deaf above 60?
I bought my classic Panda as a project, and I am desperate to get her on the road, eventually, but I know that when I drive her it will be an event - and not always for the right reasons, but it will be different, which is what we need now and again isn't it?

Great topic! I'll start by saying I'm a huge classic car fan so may be biased but yes I do think there a little too good. I guess it depends on what you want from a car but I love driving so a car has to make me feel good. It doesn't have to be fast as such it's just st hot to make me grin from time to time. I think this is something that is lost in new cars as companies make their cars more and more refined to the point where they are fantastic at thief job but wholly uninspiring to drive.

My example of this is my dads 2007 civic. A brilliant car no doubt - roomy, quiet powerful and very reliable but given the choice of that to drive for the day or a classic mini then i'ld be reaching for the leyland key ring for sure! :yum: and it doesn't even have to be a cooper just a standard city will do me and there's my point to me I love the noise,sounds and smells of the old cars. Ask my wife and she would choose the civic because she just doesn't get old cars

Also I love working on cars too something that has been made very difficult these days (like removing a bumper to replace a bulb - unheard of in Henry fords time). Maybe that's a sign of the times that people today don't want to work on cars? In the "days gone by" just about everyone knew how to do DIY.

And then there's all the gadgets they install on cars. I'll admit that I love my air con and electric Windows but with the advent of reverse sensors and cameras I can't help but feel a certain amount of skill is being engineered out of people's lives.....I mean what next? Cars that park themselfs? Imagine that!

Great topic!

From my perspective moderns aren't too good per se.

Driving pleasure is not linked to reliability, the single biggest thing killing fun time behind the wheel are different nanny systems.

In modern Fiats etc. you can't turn off stability or any other safety systems. This means that the cars do not flow and react anymore, they just do what computer tells and most of the time the computer says 'no'

-Tazio

Having read the replies another question that comes to mind, is being a bit rubbish in some way necessary for a car to have character?

As a family we recently had to scrap our Mk2 Punto which we had owned for 7 years.
It was quite a sad day, but made economic sense.
I am now realising how much time that car took up, whether on repairs or preventative work. There always seemed to be something needing doing, but that was down to age rather than inherent reliability issues. "Paolo" had become more like an ageing pet that you spend time and money on without question - without us realising it.
That is also part of the charm i suppose.

Driving isn't what it used to be because I feel it's done now more out of necessity. My dad was saying how he used to play a game using CB radios with his friends, like a huge scale hide and seek with their cars. Now, you could play, but you'd either get pulled over, done for tresspass, or just spend the whole time worrying about petrol or work in the morning.
Also there's just more traffic. So you can't just go for a blast without getting stuck behind something.

StevenRB45 said:

Having read the replies another question that comes to mind, is being a bit rubbish in some way necessary for a car to have character?

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Possibly. I think character is in the eye of the beholder. We've had a number of cars, and only a few have what I'd call "character". The old Zafira drank oil like no one's business, and had an engine transplant on out driveway. Not sure whether that's character, or whether it was just old and dying. Maybe it's the looking back nostagically that makes character.
I like looking at mine, cheekily poking it's front out from behind walls and things. It's just that sort of thing that makes it for me.



that was deep, man.

"Character" for me is quirky things - like on the classic Panda, the ashtray hooks on to the dashboard shelf so you can slide it across to either the driver, passenger, or the middle. Genius! Or the fact that by designing a recesss in to the door edge they could have a simple button to open the door rather than something more complicated.
Or how easy it is to whip the seats out for whatever reason. I also like the reverse snobbery thing.

pooroldcodger said:

As a family we recently had to scrap our Mk2 Punto which we had owned for 7 years.
It was quite a sad day, but made economic sense.
I am now realising how much time that car took up, whether on repairs or preventative work. There always seemed to be something needing doing, but that was down to age rather than inherent reliability issues. "Paolo" had become more like an ageing pet that you spend time and money on without question - without us realising it.
That is also part of the charm i suppose.

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This sounds rather like "Zimbado" my OHs elderly Micra (yes I know Jap box but it was at the point where Jap build quality starts to lose the battle with time). Also hooning a micra along dukes pass in Scotland was hilarious, mechanically it was like the black night off Monty python, "tis but a flesh wound". My memory of OT will always be my OH jumping into it late as ever and taking off at full bore with the engine stone cold and roaring off up the road (the exhaust was terrible you could hear her coming 1/2 mile away), with black smoke trailing behind as the ecu struggled to balance auto choke and a floored throttle and gave up!

I'm not sure quirky is character, to me it sounds like good design but depends on the context, fairly sure a panda without that ashtray would still most definitely be a panda! While my current car has quirky touches..but I'm not convinced as to how charming it is, efficient would be a better word.

My mk1 punto drives like a bag of crap compared to my daily runner- a focus 1.0 ecoboost Zetec s, nice car, remapped to 155bhp, however I try use my punto as much as I possibly can.

My wife however, absolutely will not go near my punto, no power steering, notchy gearbox, no air con.....

Which is totally fine by me ?

simon_16vpunto said:

My mk1 punto drives like a bag of crap compared to my daily runner- a focus 1.0 ecoboost Zetec s, nice car, remapped to 155bhp, however I try use my punto as much as I possibly can.

My wife however, absolutely will not go near my punto, no power steering, notchy gearbox, no air con.....

Which is totally fine by me ?

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As I've said before many fond memories of none PS puntos.

I reckon somewhere in the 90s is where the sweet spot occurred between cars that started and ran reliably and cars that are too capable by half!

I blame the MK1 Focus and the new edge Fords it was so revolutionary everyone had to move their cars on hugely to compete, until then normal cars were average, from then they had to be hugely capable to be even be in the running. This then forced everyone in the tiers above to be better...cos well you can't be embarrassed by a peasant car. In doing so they became heavier, safer, gripper and more insulating. Which is fine but occasionally you want that zing that disappeared along the way.

Having owned a lot of cars from a lot of different makers i'd have to say modern is better, we spend much more time sat in traffic jams and queues these days and most of the old cars I've owned would have overheated or started coughing and spluttering after ten minutes... when I think back all my spare time was taken up just keeping some of them going whereas I still marvel at how my little 100hp can sit in traffic for hours in boiling hot weather with the air-con/stereo on and the rev counter doesn't even wobble, i'd concede that modern cars are dumbed down for the masses and you have to look pretty hard to find something genuinely fun to drive but you can walk away from crashes in a modern car that would've seen you pushing up daisies in a 70's/80's car.
I'd go as far as to say that very few people buy a car on how it drives these days, the equipment/looks/safety/warranty are much more important to 99% of car buyers and overtaking seems to be a dying art (and even frowned upon).

For me personally, cars reached their peak about 10 years ago. Nowadays, cars are becoming increasingly stuffed with pointless tech, and even city cars are now being fitted with the sort of luxuries found on an S-Class 15 years ago. (Would sir like satnav and a parking camera in his Citroën C1?)

You also have the EU sticking it's snout in, getting manufacturers to fit numerous driver aids, which I question the necessity of, and making policies which lead to woefully inaccurate mpg and emissions figures.

These days, car design is tending to get either fussy and overcomplicated, leading to cars being hideous, (i.e fiesta and clio) or manufacturers are evolving existing, bland designs. (i.e mondeo and Passat.)

puntofan01 said:

You also have the EU sticking it's snout in, getting manufacturers to fit numerous driver aids, which I question the necessity

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Like what?

Stuff like ESP. Give it time, and I wouldn't be surprised if lane departure systems and autonomous braking become compulsory too.

puntofan01 said:

Stuff like ESP.

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Why is that a problem
Stability programs genuinely save lives, it's no different than complaining about airbags or seat belts.

AndyRKett said:

Why is that a problem
Stability programs genuinely save lives, it's no different than complaining about airbags or seat belts.

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Call me old fashioned, but personally, I think driver aids are no substitute for careful driving and good car design. I agree with ABS, but all the others: no thanks.

puntofan01 said:

Call me old fashioned, but personally, I think driver aids are no substitute for careful driving and good car design.

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DfT statics show a 25% decrease in accidents where cars are fitted with ESC how can you argue against that?

There was a time cars didn't have ABS and every one complained about that, ABS is nothing more than a forerunner of ESC. Before that, people whinged about the take over of powersteering and how they "like to feel the road" these days no one even thinks about ABS or powersteering it's just a fact of motoring life.

Good car design doesn't stop a driver losing control on black ice or aquaplaining on a wet road.

Personally the more things car have fitted to stop one another crashing into each other on our heavily overcrowded roads the better.

puntofan01 said:

Call me old fashioned, but personally, I think driver aids are no substitute for careful driving and good car design. I agree with ABS, but all the others: no thanks.

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I have a car with DSC...it has never activated. In normal conditions that chassis is too good you have to either catastrophically stupid or very unlucky or be forced into a heavy braking/turning situation due to incident ahead. However if I was suddenly to hit a patch of diesel mid roundabout I'm pretty sure I'd want it.

I'm on the fence with auto braking, brilliant technology but feel as though it encourages a lack of concentration.

StevenRB45 said:

I'm on the fence with auto braking, brilliant technology but feel as though it encourages a lack of concentration.

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That's why I'm dubious about driver aids as a whole.