JimbbobW1977 said:

So the RS fits the bill then as a driver car where as the R32 was a bloated Golf with a big engine and little involvement?

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They are very very similar in performance and figures.

The golf is about 235hp all wheel drive but is heavy.

The focus is 215hp standard and fwd but quite a bit lighter. The focus pips the golf on speed 0 - 60 by 0.2 of a second and going back to look at the top gear figures the focus was exactly 1 second quicker round the track.

Back in the early 2000s I new a guy who ran a ford breakers and he own several RS mk1 Focus both working and crashed, and he had quite a lot of crashed ones. He found that no two focus RS were the same and often had a lot more power than the quoted figures, he had one that turned out to be 250hp without modifications, he also had one sub 200hp so it wasn't all good. The fancy differential also made it very tricky to drive at speed. Still a lovely car though.

The 4wd golf was a usual German build reliable drove well and was powerful better nailed together but lacked the spark of the focus (and didn't try and kill you as much)
Reviews of the golf were largely positive and generally the motoring press didn't have much bad to say about it. The focus was well received but the journalist (who remember drive all sorts of powerful and well handling cars all day every day) didn't like the way it handled because of that fwd and fancy differential set up.

As MEP pointed out how do you define drivers car? Being more difficult to drive doesn't make it any better, there are plenty of bad driving cars out there no one would ever notice.

In a literal sense a driver’s car is merely one that can be driven by anyone who has the ability to drive.

But in the sometimes overused sense of the term, a driver’s car is one that is unusual in the satisfaction it delivers to the person behind the wheel.

It’s what we as a collection of individuals feel about a car, not something we can prove or justify via scientific measurement.

As to what constitutes a driver’s car, several key factors must be present in my opinion, most of which are again subjective judgments in themselves.

It must have good steering feel (which is entirely subjective), it must have an approachable, natural sense of balance to its handling (ditto), a well resolved, well damped ride (ditto), it must sound good (ditto), it must have good clean throttle response, a decent gearchange – be that manual or paddle-shift – and seats whose springing is in sync with that of the chassis.

What a driver’s car does not automatically require is massive amounts of power, torque, acceleration, speed, grip or fundamental dynamic excellence.

A Suzuki Swift is a great driver’s car yet it has none of the aforementioned attributes. On the other hand, just because these elements are present doesn’t mean that a hugely powerful, extremely fast, dynamically impressive car can’t also be defined as a great driver’s car.

So I guess the answer is: a driver’s car is one that we feel is worth going the extra mile in, merely because we, as keen drivers, know that we’ll reach an extra level of enjoyment when behind the wheel.

I think the best way to look at it is which car set the template for most future hot hatches...the focus, 2.0 turbo, trick diff and front wheel drive. That phrase describes almost every current hot hatch except the Golf R and Audi S3...which as ever are followed round by the phrase immensely fast but a bit dull. Yes the new RS is coming the A45 is here and there are odd balls such as 135i. Whether something that costs over 30k and has more than 300bhp is still a "hot hatch" is another debate entirely.

JimbbobW1977 said:

a driver’s car is one that is unusual in the satisfaction it delivers to the person behind the wheel.

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Good to know my Prius sits up there then

Most Easterly Pandas said:

Good to know my Prius sits up there then

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Likewise the mk2b I used to own, and my current ride, lol!

JimbbobW1977 said:

So the RS fits the bill then as a driver car where as the R32 was a bloated Golf with a big engine and little involvement?

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In a wide range of conditions and types of roads the R32 is superior to the Focus, on a track the situation would be reversed but most people don't live on or near a track.

puntofan01 said:

R32s are more likely to be bought by chavs these days who think it's cool to drive like a prat.

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Hardly... you might see chavs driving R32 replicas but most R32 owners I know are enthusiasts who use them mostly as weekend toys... they are still considerably more expensive to buy than their lesser range brothers.

As MEP pointed out how do you define drivers car? Being more difficult to drive doesn't make it any better, there are plenty of bad driving cars out there no one would ever notice.

The worst front drive car I've ever driven is an astra vxr... I felt like I wasn't in control of the thing and yet they are revered in certain circles.

Gavv8 said:

Hardly... you might see chavs driving R32 replicas but most R32 owners I know are enthusiasts who use them mostly as weekend toys... they are still considerably more expensive to buy than their lesser range brothers.

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Fair enough.

Gavv8 said:

As MEP pointed out how do you define drivers car? Being more difficult to drive doesn't make it any better, there are plenty of bad driving cars out there no one would ever notice.

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I once saw an article in a motoring magazine, written by an experienced motoring journalist/road tester, which I have to say, I completely agree with. In this article, he states that if you enjoy driving for what it is, pretty much any car has the potential to be good fun.

puntofan01 said:

I once saw an article in a motoring magazine, written by an experienced motoring journalist/road tester, which I have to say, I completely agree with. In this article, he states that if you enjoy driving for what it is, pretty much any car has the potential to be good fun.

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I would say that there are very few people who enjoy driving for what it is these days, the emphasis has moved on to safety/tech and niche marketing.. I could probably count on one hand people I know who would admit to enjoying driving their car properly on a good road and I don't necessarily mean fast but concentrating on getting the most out of the car and the road within the limits of the conditions and laws, this is why I think after owning and driving so many different cars over the years I've arrived at the 100hp.. I enjoy driving it every day and in all conditions whether bumbling along or pushing on but for everyone like me there will be ten who would hate it after a few miles... car ownership and enjoyment is completely subjective.

Gavv8 said:

I would say that there are very few people who enjoy driving for what it is these days, the emphasis has moved on to safety/tech and niche marketing.. I could probably count on one hand people I know who would admit to enjoying driving their car properly on a good road and I don't necessarily mean fast but concentrating on getting the most out of the car and the road within the limits of the conditions and laws, this is why I think after owning and driving so many different cars over the years I've arrived at the 100hp.. I enjoy driving it every day and in all conditions whether bumbling along or pushing on but for everyone like me there will be ten who would hate it after a few miles... car ownership and enjoyment is completely subjective.

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I don't know if he necessarily meant driving a car to its absolute limits, just enjoying the experience of driving. In the article, he mentioned having fun in a Galaxy diesel and a Lexus CT200-H. My old car only had 60bhp, but I used to love charging around in that, and the same for the car I have now.

puntofan01 said:

I don't know if he necessarily meant driving a car to its absolute limits, just enjoying the experience of driving. In the article, he mentioned having fun in a Galaxy diesel and a Lexus CT200-H. My old car only had 60bhp, but I used to love charging around in that, and the same for the car I have now.

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And likewise I very much enjoyed driving the diesel Qashqai I rented in Ireland this summer.

Gavv8 said:

And likewise I very much enjoyed driving the diesel Qashqai I rented in Ireland this summer.

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I think that's what he meant.

A drivers car is always going to be subjective and dependant on the person driving it. The quote I put at the top their is a googled one and not one I created for a definition.

Some cars are 'fun' as a drivers car as they are not designed for the purpose - the one example I can think is a Panda 1.3m-jet, yet I can't remember having fun in a 1.3m-jet Mito we had.

Panda 100 is fun but the ride jarred on me after a while.

Well doesn't look like VW are struggling too much at the moment, they've reported an increase in sales in the USA over the last month since the scandal broke.

They report huge growths in sales from this time last year.

Looks like, while the environmental protection agency are bothered about pollution, the general population couldn't give a stuff.

Latest part of the scandal came last night - VAG 3.0 diesels are affected also.

Also this ..

http://m.whatcar.com/car-news/car-s...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

JimbbobW1977 said:

Latest part of the scandal came last night - VAG 3.0 diesels are affected also.

Also this ..

http://m.whatcar.com/car-news/car-s...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

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No actually the EPA have said there is a big difference in real world figures and test figures that were already known, and are claiming there is a defeat device fitted to these cars also without any proof or evidence other than what was already known and applies to every other manufacturer. VW have heavily disputed this claim. The EPA now have a bee in their bonnet

Oh and now 800 000 VW's could have false Co2 emissions as well.

Gets worse by the day for VAG owners. Definitely glad I didn't buy one when I bought my car!

I certainly don't look at any VAG TDI car with envy as much as the sheep drivers would like to think!! I just see a cheating car!!

JimbbobW1977 said:

Oh and now 800 000 VW's could have false Co2 emissions as well.

Gets worse by the day for VAG owners. Definitely glad I didn't buy one when I bought my car!

I certainly don't look at any VAG TDI car with envy as much as the sheep drivers would like to think!! I just see a cheating car!!

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To be fair though, there's a giant question mark over the whole car industries' CO2 emissions.