Well, you can pretty much guarantee anything with a ford or vag badge on the front will get a good review...

puntofan01 said:

It was that reason that led me to allow my subscription to Top Gear to expire. It is as though cars these days are not massively judged on the important aspects of being an actual car, they're mainly judged on how well they can pair with a certain overpriced smartphone, and how well the touchscreen behaves... ?

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Yup! The girls in the recent Vauxhall add (can't actually remember which model it's for but it's one of the small ones) seem to have bought it because they like the sound system! What's that all about?

Sitting here, eating my porridge (yes really), smarting from Mrs Jock's chastisement regarding the grass stains on the knees of the trousers I was wearing yesterday and reflecting on last night's investigations into the noise made by my daughter-in-laws Fabia (see "what made you smile" post.) I got to thinking how the different cars in the family feel on the road in relation to their tyre sizes and specifically their aspect ratios.

The cars I drive most are my own Ibiza which runs on 185/60sr15's and my wife's Panda which is on 155/80sr13's. From time to time I also drive my older boy's 2012 1.4 8 valve Punto on 186/65sr15's (I think?) And younger boy's wife's Jazz (2008 idsi) 185/55sr15 (I think?). Of all these cars the Panda is indesputably the most comfortable to drive around our pot holed Edinburgh streets and it deals best with the speed bumps. I've long thought it due to the ability of the ample sidewalls to absorb the imperfections. All of the above vehicles are really quite comfortable though when compared to last night's experience in the Fabia. This vehicle is my older boy's wife's daily driver and is a 1.6CR diesel estate. Its perfectly suited to her daily drive.- roughly a mile from home to the motorway then a cruise all the way out to Livingston and return in the evening - exactly what a diesel is best at (didn't stop the EGR blocking up though!) It's the Scout Estate so has fancy big wheels with wide tyres (much wider than mine) that are so low profile that, with a stretch of the imagination, you might described them as "rubber bands". Last night's driving experience brought home how unpleasant these very low profile tyres make the ride. Compared to my Ibiza (also an estate) which is a very similar vehicle from the same manufacturing group, the steering was very "tramliney" with the car crashing and banging over potholes and speed bumps. I can only guess that this tyre/wheel combination is fitted for the "butch aggressive" look it imparts to this 4WD look alike. Which, in itself, is silly anyway as most true 4WD vehicles are on big spongy tyres! My Ibiza, or the Panda, on their "squidgy" high profile rubber are a much more pleasant drive. It also reminded me how nose heavy and unresponsive that heavy diesel makes the handling. The other cars are all petrols and feel much more "sprightly"! Mind you that diesel can really haul in a straight line!

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

Yup! The girls in the recent Vauxhall add (can't actually remember which model it's for but it's one of the small ones) seem to have bought it because they like the sound system! What's that all about?

Click to expand...

Vauxhall know their main demographic, with the Corsa (its a Corsa in the ad) they are basically selling the car to teenagers who want something they can drive their mates about in while listening to loud music, in other ads they have highlighted the built in Wifi which all teenagers need these days to connect multiple gadgets to.

SB1500 said:

The Up/Citigo/Mii is the number one city car in numerous magazines and review sites YET none of them can pinpoint why.. I guess Top Gear is probably the same?

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They all list why?

as one example "No other class rival can match this trio’s impressive blend of brilliant driving dynamics, practicality, refinement and value"

That said the magazines know these cars are getting on a bit now, so other better cars are creeping in. The kia Picanto scores very highly against the Up!, Mii and Citigo and comes in under £10k

Gotta admit when I drove the base model UP it certainly drove well and felt solid..... I've driven a lot worse!

AndyRKett said:

They all list why?

as one example "No other class rival can match this trio’s impressive blend of brilliant driving dynamics, practicality, refinement and value"

That said the magazines know these cars are getting on a bit now, so other better cars are creeping in. The kia Picanto scores very highly against the Up!, Mii and Citigo and comes in under £10k

Click to expand...

I've test drove the Up and whilst it wasn't bad, I fail to see how it's any better at handling, practicality or refinement than a Panda?

I watched some German car review video of the Panda (both my model and the current) from one of their magazines... at one part they had the car over something like 60,000 km and in pieces to look at how various components held up... I wish our magazines / car sites went into that sort of detail.

At least then they'd lived with the car and had someone with an actual mechanical background make a comment as to reliability or poor quality.... not somebody saying the company has 'good' or 'bad' reputation..... Reputation is nothing and each company is only as good as it's last model.

Saying that, journalism in the western world in general is pretty full of it and off the mark as it is, so I suppose the car segment has no reason to be any different. Be it a political agenda or one of profit...

Makes me quite glad to have all the members on here with their actual experiences to refer to when I have a question about cars :worship:

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

My Ibiza, or the Panda, on their "squidgy" high profile rubber are a much more pleasant drive.

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The higher profile tyres are much better at absorbing bumps. Some time ago I looked up the recommended tyre pressures on the tyre manufacturer's web sites, for those that I could find with pressure charts, and all show a slightly higher pressure than Fiat. Using the higher pressures made it quieter and more comfortable. If I remember tomorrow when it is light, I'll check my card in the glovebox and report the higher figures here.

When we were using the 500s with BSM the Pop models were significantly more comfortable than the Sport.

With regard the Up!, I spent a whole day in one a couple of years back, with two quite tall guys, driver training. After the whole day, 9-4, we were all still happy, no aches, and all impressed with how the little car coped with three of us. Sweet little car, no character or emotion, but no vices either. Could happily live with one.

portland_bill said:

The higher profile tyres are much better at absorbing bumps. Some time ago I looked up the recommended tyre pressures on the tyre manufacturer's web sites, for those that I could find with pressure charts, and all show a slightly higher pressure than Fiat. Using the higher pressures made it quieter and more comfortable. If I remember tomorrow when it is light, I'll check my card in the glovebox and report the higher figures here.

When we were using the 500s with BSM the Pop models were significantly more comfortable than the Sport.

With regard the Up!, I spent a whole day in one a couple of years back, with two quite tall guys, driver training. After the whole day, 9-4, we were all still happy, no aches, and all impressed with how the little car coped with three of us. Sweet little car, no character or emotion, but no vices either. Could happily live with one.

Click to expand...

Always interested in anything to do with tyres PB. Let me know those pressures if you find them won't you?

Regarding the Up. I've no experience but my daughter, who lives at the other end of the country, near Salisbury, bought a used Skoda Citigo earlier this year. She seems very pleased with it but wants me to have a wee drive in it next time we're visiting, as she thinks the gearbox is just a "wee bit noisy"! She's already talked to the garage which sold it to them who say there's nothing wrong (they would wouldn't they) unfortunately the short warranty given has run out and I read that the 'boxes on these are known to be not particularly robust! Suggested she ask their local small garage, who look after their main car, Kia Ceed estate, to have a listen. Waiting on her getting back to me.

portland_bill said:

The higher profile tyres are much better at absorbing bumps.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily it depends on an extent as to if the suspension can cope as well. If it's designed for big wheels and tyres it can be ok.

However most small cars aren't, I do find it amusing that every review of the C3 mentions hard rear suspension and it being upset by sharp bumps so missing the comfort Citroen says is the goal. Oddly enough never noticed these issues as all the press cars are on optional 17s, ours is on a standard 16 with a bigger tyre and whaddya know it works. Then again they also complain the centre cubby is a useless size..which it is if you were daft enough to pay for keyless and the start button takes up half of it, if you don't mind twiddling a key it'll hold a big phone.

Options...choose carefully!

StevenRB45 said:

Then again they also complain the centre cubby is a useless size..which it is if you were daft enough to pay for keyless and the start button takes up half of it, if you don't mind twiddling a key it'll hold a big phone.

Options...choose carefully!

Click to expand...

I've never understood why start buttons have to be in the middle of the dash, I'd put it on the column where the key would normally go.

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

<SNIP>
the gearbox is just a "wee bit noisy"! She's already talked to the garage which sold it to them who say there's nothing wrong (they would wouldn't they) unfortunately the short warranty given has run out.
<SNIP>

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Depending on age of car and mileage the dealer may still be liable for repairs regardless of warranty if it's a significant fault. I'm not up to date with the laws north of the boarder, but it's worth checking.


Robert g8RPI.

Thanks for that. She's about 1/2 an hour north of Salisbury Wilts. So under English law, which is why I can't just nip round and have a listen! I'll pass that on to her (about possible liability).

Thanks again. Isn't it wonderful what a depth of knowledge there is on this forum!
Kind regards
Jack

Some of you are well aware I can be an absolute :devil: when it suits me. Today was one of those days.

We have some contractors at work and my boots were nicked from a closed cupboard in the office we use yesterday.

Other things are missing as well so I laid it on good and think with their supervisor this morning...

"I know homeless drug addicts who aren't low enough to steal someone else's shoes".

"If your guys are that desperate and want to talk about it I'm a pretty good listener".

"I don't want them back. Someone stealing shoes? (deliberate AQI) Taking them back would be amoral".

...I got back the classic...

"He didn't know if they belonged to anyone".

...I replied...

"So instead of theft from someone it would be theft by finding. Still theft. All he needed to do was ask".

...closely followed by...

"I have some numbers for help groups in the area if he needs them".

I was mostly sincere and genuine but part of me wanted to make sure he would be too ashamed to do anything like that again. Either way not the nicest nor the meanest way of going about it.

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

Always interested in anything to do with tyres PB. Let me know those pressures if you find them won't you?

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Vredestein say F. 2.3bar, R. 2.4bar
Continental say F. 2.0bar, R. 2.0bar, loaded 2.2/2.2.
I seem to remember Fiat say 2.0/1.8.
I think I'm currently using 2.2 both ends and it handles and rides very well.

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

She's already talked to the garage which sold it to them who say there's nothing wrong (they would wouldn't they) unfortunately the short warranty given has run out

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If she reported the issue before the warranty ran out, then any failure should be covered.

Eklipze3k said:

I've never understood why start buttons have to be in the middle of the dash, I'd put it on the column where the key would normally go.

Click to expand...

Psychological. Imparts a feeling of power, apparently.

Liquid Knight II said:

"He didn't know if they belonged to anyone".

Click to expand...

Well, there were no feet in them at the time!

portland_bill said:

Vredestein say F. 2.3bar, R. 2.4bar
Continental say F. 2.0bar, R. 2.0bar, loaded 2.2/2.2.
I seem to remember Fiat say 2.0/1.8.
I think I'm currently using 2.2 both ends and it handles and rides very well.


If she reported the issue before the warranty ran out, then any failure should be covered.


Psychological. Imparts a feeling of power, apparently.


Well, there were no feet in them at the time!

Click to expand...

Thanks PB. Going to have a play swapping wheels round and varying pressures as soon as this wind abates. It really got going at bedtime last night and this morning there is a big tree down over the cycle path which is not going to be easy to sort. I've got a quite rickety 6ft high panel fence between me and my neighbor - was expecting to see it flattened this morning, but no! Still standing! And my front garden is full of small twigs, leaves, litter, etc. Glad I took my hanging basket down before going to bed last night!

Thanks for the advice you've all given regarding the gearbox warranty. Strangely she really doesn't seem at all worried about it? But I think I've convinced her to pop in to their local garage for an opinion. I think this lack of urgency all stems from Mrs Jock's Dad who once loudly proclaimed that "if Jock says there's something wrong with the car that means you've got at least 6 months before it will breakdown on you!"

Regarding the start button being prominently displayed. Could it be one upmanship? "My car has this cool feature which yours doesn't!" I was interested to find that my, relatively, new Ibiza - which has a key type ignition switch on the column - works like a keyless in that you only need to twist the key briefly to activate the starter motor! You can release the key back into the run position long before the motor fires up and the starter will continue to crank until the motor fires. Probably something to do with having stop/start (could happily do without it though). I don't like the lack of direct control and wonder about the situation where perhaps you notice something wrong - perhaps a meshing problem pinion to ring gear or an engine noise - where with the conventional system the cranking would stop as you release the key presumably the new type system will go on cranking if the engine doesn't fire until either a time limit is reached or something breaks? Maybe if you physically rotate the key back to the ignition off position it might stop the cranking but you would need to think about doing that as it's not the normal reaction? Having lived with it for a couple of years now I don't like hill hold either. It hangs on for too long so the clutch is fighting it - could promote increased clutch wear? Mind you, if you apply the hand brake instead of holding the car on the foot brake (funny, I seem to remember Mr Scott my driving instructor back in the 60's, teaching me to do this!) then the hill hold doesn't activate. Beggars the question - are modern drivers car control skills so poor now-a-days that they can't "catch" a car on the clutch when doing a hill start?

Eklipze3k said:

I've never understood why start buttons have to be in the middle of the dash, I'd put it on the column where the key would normally go.

Click to expand...

portland_bill said:

Psychological. Imparts a feeling of power, apparently.

Click to expand...

There are more reasons...

In some states of America and various places around the world it is illegal to have four or more point harnesses instead of seat belts so the start button is placed out of reach. Thanks to Hot Rod Drag Week this law was relaxed in some of those states.

Older push buttons can generate heat if held in place so tend to be away from other electrical items. Modern cars have a push button to trigger the starter that is either on a set timer or will cut out automatically when the engine fires up.

...and so on.

The last time I fitted a start button it was on my gear knob but I used to have one mounted where the clock was on my Panda (Guff II).

Liquid Knight II said:

There are more reasons...

In some states of America and various places around the world it is illegal to have four or more point harnesses instead of seat belts so the start button is placed out of reach. Thanks to Hot Rod Drag Week this law was relaxed in some of those states.

Older push buttons can generate heat if held in place so tend to be away from other electrical items. Modern cars have a push button to trigger the starter that is either on a set timer or will cut out automatically when the engine fires up.

Click to expand...

I swear I'm, going to have to start calling you Elder Cunningham

Almost every car with a start button has it in easy reach of the driver. most put it on the panel beside the gearstick, plenty do put it on the dash where the normal ignition key used to go. Some put it up amongst the heater control area of the dash and some even put it on the steering wheel.

I have never encountered a car with a start button that was out of the reach of the driver.

Also in the last 20 years electronics controlled ignition systems have become common place, non of them use a timer, they all use the engine's sensors to know it has started and disengage the starter motor.

If it just used a timer then it would risk destroying the starter every time the car tried to fire up and despite the engine starting the motor remained engaged for another couple of seconds.

Even cars that still have a key like my golf, you don't need to turn and hold the key, you turn the key briefly and the car takes over warming the glow plugs and turning the starter.

I'm not aware of any high production cars in the last 15 years with a start button you have to hold (maybe smaller niche companies like Caterham)

Eklipze3k said:

I've never understood why start buttons have to be in the middle of the dash, I'd put it on the column where the key would normally go.

Click to expand...

In the Citroen it's so the passenger can press it presumably..


In the same place on right hookers as well..lazy. if you don't have it the cubby is symmetrical and in just the right place for a phone connected to the screen. Also you can't then nick the car with a signal booster..so result all around.

Thanks for that Andy, I had to bite my tongue or the on-line version "bite my finger"?


Robert G8RPI.