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Old 1 Week Ago   #691
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

The environmental impact of making new cars has come down significantly as cars built in the last 20 years are designed to use materials and be easier to recycle.

That said there is still a significant impact of building new cars, however the more expensive a car is for example a big Range Rover or similar the less likely it is to get scrapped, in fact the majority of landrovers ever made are still in regular use around the world. They still carry a great deal of use and value, where as a cheaply built car tends to have a finite longevity, for example mk2 puntos are now beginning to disappear changing hands for ~£500 which means one big MOT bill will see them in the scrap yard. This morning I followed a scrap lorry with a grande punto (08 plate) lashed to the back with no wheels and a thick coat of Alge in place of blue paint. Not obviously accident damaged but obviously not put on the truck delicately and surrounded and stuffed with bike frames and washing machine parts.
You wouldn't expect the same fate to befall a 08 registered Mercedes, BMW or Land Rover, too much value in those cars for a scrap Man to haul away the carcas like this.

So in short, building thousands of small cheap throwaway cars isn't good for the environment either, in this respect Fiat sits happily along side the likes of Peugeot, Kia, Hyundai and Vauxhall, producing thousands of cheap cars built cheaply not expecting them to last very long
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Old 1 Week Ago   #692
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

That's not so much to do with the cars themselves though, more the attitudes of the throw away society we have in this country.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #693
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Think of how much energy and oil is used to manufacture a new car.
The metals need to be produced from their ores for a start (re-smelting scrap metal helps but currently not enough and still requires power )

I think some cars are scrapped because they not "shiny enough anymore" for the throw away society.

Following USA is not always a good idea.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #694
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Actually, Iíd say itís more like this.

My 12 year old Panda will continue to be used as long as it doesnít cost say £400 in one go to fix. And Iíll use it until either the engine blows up or the bodywork crumbles. Easily could last 15-16 years. Same with any Fiat or similar Ďlow cost carí

Whereas.. take your Audi from 2010... those will be scrapped much earlier because theyíve got idiotic engineering in them that means if youíre not loaded youíll never be able to afford to buy the extortionately priced parts available at the dealer only. Therefore itíll go to scrap because the people with the money to fix it arenít interested and the poor buggers like me etc who are spending over the odds to buy and run the thing canít afford to fix them.

And for the record I see a lot of 90s Puntoís - rough as they are now - Iíve not seen one with the extent of bubbled rust under the paintwork as I have BMWs from the same era. And Iím sure the Puntoís might still be on their original water pumps too ;-)

Main point being these cheaper cars are easy to fix and people like myself with not much cash will in reality shed out to fix them - who cares if I spend £500 on a car thatís only worth £500? Thatís market value. Whereas a look at my car and youíll see itís in pretty good shape for its age, runs like a clock and most importantly is 100% owned by me. Why would I sell it and buy any other sub £1000 used car that could have way more serious problems?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #695
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

I have seen quite a few "prestige" cars scrapped at under 10 years old. One was an Audi with a transmission problem with the parts bill of nearly £7000 + labour to fix. Otherwise it was almost like new.
Same sort of deal with a BMW X5. Admittedly they were subsequently broken for parts, but it is a lot of car to scrap for a single fault. And by the look of the "spares and repairs" section of a well-known online auction site, these are not particularly unusual.
Also had a colleague with a 5 year old Jaguar XF who was very relieved his extended warranty covered the repair of a failed gearbox that added up to over £10k. No possibility of remanufactured or second hand parts, apparently.

So, not entirely sure if expensive, complex, fairly rare cars with effectively only one source of parts are a more ecologically sound proposition than cheap, simple plentiful cars with parts shared amongst a range of models/manufacturers.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #696
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Without listening to opinions of what people say they have or haven't seen, feel free to do this

Auto trader app, set the maximum age of the car to "up to the year 2000"

So it will only show cars for sale that are older than 17 years.
Citroen 31
Daewoo 8
Kia. 1
Peugeot 115
Rover 115
Fiat 51

Then
Mercedes 449
BMW 454
Jaguar 213
Land Rover 296


The middle of the road cars
Volkswagen 412
Toyota 290
Vauxhall 182
Ford 341
Honda 178

So expensive brands have a lot more cars still being sold as running cars on autotrader, than both the cheap brands and in most cases the middle of the road brands, bearing in mind that the likes of jaguar, Mercedes, Land Rover sell only a small percentage of the cars registered each year compared to the likes of Fiat, Ford, Peugeot, citron and Vauxhall, the results as a percentage would show a massive difference between more expensive cars kept running and cheaper cars.

There is a huge amount of aftermarket support for German car brands which means many parts can be obtained long after the manufacturers stop making them and what cars do get scrapped shore up the used parts market.

Cheaper cars tend to be in such abundance that it makes new parts cheap it's not worth breaking the cars for parts. By the time the after market parts manufacturers give up support the ones in scrapyards are long gone making simple repairs uneconomical. I don't need to get into an argument over people's perceptions, this exercise shows that cheap cars don't stick around to be sold on, while more prestigious brands do.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #697
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Thatís because all the 17+ year old Fiats are still in service and their owners are too attached to sell them ;-)

To be honest youíll never see my Panda on AutoTrader because Iíll be keeping it til the day where itís so worthless and old I take it to actually be shredded into metal shards. But itíll still be a hopefully 17+ year old working Fiat, just never a part of AutoTrader based statistics
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Old 1 Week Ago   #698
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
I don't need to get into an argument over people's perceptions, this exercise shows that cheap cars don't stick around to be sold on, while more prestigious brands do.
No argument from me, in the age range chosen you are almost certainly correct. Pre-2000-ish expensive cars have tended to survive better than cheap ones as they are still fundamentally basic engineering, albeit with some fairly rudimentary electronics added on top (much of which can actually be repaired with a soldering iron and a multimeter, or at worst an oscilloscope, especially if there is a worthwhile owner's club).

As the electonics get more integrated, and the mechanicals become more complex (think DSG, electronically controlled differentials, ECUs comprising multiple bespoke ASICs etc.) the possibilities for economic repair diminish, and survival seems to be favouring the simpler, more plentiful examples, especially where the electronics are less integrated.

Conversely, the parts which can usefully be re-used from a complex car with deeply integrated electronics seem to be reducing in line with the number of mechanics who are willing to work on them, as swapping mechanical parts often needs to be combined with some element of control unit reprogramming.

This is not a fixed rule, more an observation related to running, operating and monitoring a fairly wide range of vehicles.

As a trivial example of the effect, consider Fiat's Dualogic gearbox actuator. It is actually a simple device, but confounds many who fall foul of a problematic one because it is mechanical, hydraulic and electronic. So, even though it is fitted to a fair number of vehicles, there are only a few places who can actually fix them (as opposed to places who can fit a whole new unit, as long as they are available), thereby often causing the scrapping of an otherwise fully working car. (Ended up being simpler to learn how they work and get the spanners (and computer) out myself)

Going slightly off-topic, I have also struggled in finding independents who will work on DSGs, even for fairly high value cars, so any recommendations in Eastern England gratefully received. I have a Ford DSG which can only select reverse and it is baffling me...
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Old 1 Week Ago   #699
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Maybe we should all be driving Ferraris then - they hold their value well. Some of them even go up in price, so I've heard...
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Old 1 Week Ago   #700
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Quote Originally Posted by AndyRKett View Post
Without listening to opinions of what people say they have or haven't seen, feel free to do this

Auto trader app, set the maximum age of the car to "up to the year 2000"

So it will only show cars for sale that are older than 17 years.
Citroen 31
Daewoo 8
Kia. 1
Peugeot 115
Rover 115
Fiat 51

Then
Mercedes 449
BMW 454
Jaguar 213
Land Rover 296


The middle of the road cars
Volkswagen 412
Toyota 290
Vauxhall 182
Ford 341
Honda 178

So expensive brands have a lot more cars still being sold as running cars on autotrader, than both the cheap brands and in most cases the middle of the road brands, bearing in mind that the likes of jaguar, Mercedes, Land Rover sell only a small percentage of the cars registered each year compared to the likes of Fiat, Ford, Peugeot, citron and Vauxhall, the results as a percentage would show a massive difference between more expensive cars kept running and cheaper cars.

There is a huge amount of aftermarket support for German car brands which means many parts can be obtained long after the manufacturers stop making them and what cars do get scrapped shore up the used parts market.

Cheaper cars tend to be in such abundance that it makes new parts cheap it's not worth breaking the cars for parts. By the time the after market parts manufacturers give up support the ones in scrapyards are long gone making simple repairs uneconomical. I don't need to get into an argument over people's perceptions, this exercise shows that cheap cars don't stick around to be sold on, while more prestigious brands do.
Interesting stats - how does this compare to number of cars sold? From a market share point of view Fiat is relatively small in the UK compared to a lot of those brands - even the prestige marques.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #701
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

I also forgot to add, that you should add Audi to the middle of the road list. Theyíre just VWís in fancy dress. Same engines, same faults, for some reason people pay more for the same car. Youíd think for the money they could put some effort in like Fiat did with the 500/Panda - people are actually surprised when you tell them theyíre the same car underneath!
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Old 1 Week Ago   #702
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Quote Originally Posted by JCarp16 View Post
Interesting stats - how does this compare to number of cars sold? From a market share point of view Fiat is relatively small in the UK compared to a lot of those brands - even the prestige marques.
You can try and twist this how you like, Mercedes sells considerably less cars than Fiat, something like 2million globally every year and that's it, they are not part of a bigger group that sells lots of different brands like Fiat or VW, their cars are absolutely packed with electronics a 15-20 year old merc can have far more complicated electronics than a new Fiat, and a 15 year old range rover with air suspension terrain response and all manor of electrical systems is ridiculously complex and notorious for going wrong, but still people keep putting them back on the road when they go wrong. Needing a new set of brake pipes and a couple of bald tyres on a 15 year old Fiat can be enough to see it in a scrap yard.

You can try and spin it anyway you want but more expensive cars new carry their value for longer and so end up on the road for longer, cheap throw away car have a much bigger environmental impact, which was the original argument.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #703
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

It's no more than simple economics...the more expensive it is the longer it remains too expensive to walk away from. Doesn't stop the car from being triggers broom, it's just that successive owners have forked out for repairs whereas on a cheap car they'd have called the scrap man.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #704
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Expensive cars arenít like expensive clothes or what have you, youíre paying for comfort and technology. Theyíll all rust the same. Theyíll all sink in value like a brick.

As far as I can tell a LOT of Range Roverís from the 90s were scrapped because of poorly designed complex features like air suspension. The following model was no better.

I think it comes down to the people who buy them are more prepared to sink money into them (a poor choice really). Whereas if a serious problem happens a cheaper car the owner canít afford to fix it.

Nothing to do with the cars being of any less quality..

If anything, VW group cars are throwaway. Thereís a guy on my street with 3x A3ís and they p*ss so much oil Iím surprised nobody has reported it. Every time one gets fried (typically one a year) he buys another). I fail to see the superb quality and engineering in his case. These are 01 era models. Total scrap heaps compared to my throwaway Fiat. But then, itís all economics right?
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Re: What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

This is an interesting debate. And that's the trouble, people are getting bogged down in details and semantics. Unless there is a single collaborative world-wide consensus on the environment a debate is all it's ever going to be.

I recently listened to the Skeptoid podcast on the VW dieselgate scandal. The episode looked at it from a purely science based perspective and was very interesting and goes to show that the governments can't even look at the issue holistically and make stupid decisions where politics come first and science second ( I'm a scientist btw!)

I'm of the view that I'm being more environmentally friendly keeping an old diesel Fiat on the road rather than getting a new car due to the energy required to scrap mine and produce a new car. Whether that's right or wrong is a PhD thesis in itself.

One last thing. I love Fiatforum as it is usually a nice friendly and helpful place to visit. I would hate it if threads are eight pages of people slagging each other off! Lets leave that to Pistonheads!!!
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