puntofan01 said:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

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The only car fiat sell in good numbers is the 500 which is now getting on in years but still sells well, though people are now crying out for a new model as buyers from 2008 don't really want to go and buy the same car again for the 3rd time. The grande Evo Punto has seen its sales figures drop year after year for the last decade and now they don't even bother advertising them, they are supposed to launch a new Punto next yeah but currently haven't even acknowledged their own plan to revitalise its entry in the B class sector.

It certainly is broken it's just fiat are doing nothing to fix it.

dave said:

but the Golf has been been largely the same for over 40 years

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puntofan01 said:

I must admit, I had thought that, lol!

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The thing I find funniest about these statements is that the Golf was originally designed by the same guy who designed the Grande Punto, Giorgetto Giugiaro and for at least a few generations. These days the current designer of the Golf, Walter De Silva began his career in the 1970s with fiat later went on to be head of design at Alfa Romeo and was responsible for the 156 the 166 and the 147, over saw the revival of Audi as a brand and has designed concept cars for Lamborghini and worked with Bugatti.

So by all accounts the Golf might be built in Germany but it's always been Italian designed.

Looking at the history behind the Punto fiat had the ugly 127 which they swapped in the 80s for the uno people loved the uno and just as they got used to it they changed it to the Punto, then the mk2 punto then the grande and the Evo and back to the Punto, in which time fiat changed the corporate badge 3-4 times. While VW still sell the golf by the boat load. Fiat hardly sell any puntos these days. So keeping things the same for 40 years doesn't hurt it would seem.

AndyRKett said:

TSo keeping things the same for 40 years doesn't hurt it would seem.

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we didn't say it would. you was the one who implied keeping things the same was a negative

AndyRKett said:

The only car fiat sell in good numbers is the 500 which is now getting on in years but still sells well, though people are now crying out for a new model as buyers from 2008 don't really want to go and buy the same car again for the 3rd time. The grande Evo Punto has seen its sales figures drop year after year for the last decade and now they don't even bother advertising them, they are supposed to launch a new Punto next yeah but currently haven't even acknowledged their own plan to revitalise its entry in the B class sector.

It certainly is broken it's just fiat are doing nothing to fix it.

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I must admit, I think a certain amount of that is down to the Fiat badge. If it had ford badges, people would still be falling over each other to get 1: look at the escort and the old ka: they were truly terrible cars, yet people still bought them in crazy numbers! Look at the mk4/5 fiesta: while it may have been ok by the standards of 1995, by the time it was replaced, it was completely and utterly outclassed, but it was never a shabby seller. It deserved to be, but it wasn't.

dave said:

we didn't say it would. you was the one who implied keeping things the same was a negative

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Quite the opposite, as you just quoted I agreed with you, as a concept the golf has been largely unchanged for the last 40 years in addition I didn't imply it was a negative Actually stated it was a positive ?.

puntofan01 said:

I must admit, I think a certain amount of that is down to the Fiat badge. If it had ford badges, people would still be falling over each other to get 1: look at the escort and the old ka: they were truly terrible cars, yet people still bought them in crazy numbers! Look at the mk4/5 fiesta: while it may have been ok by the standards of 1995, by the time it was replaced, it was completely and utterly outclassed, but it was never a shabby seller. It deserved to be, but it wasn't.

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Totally disagree, fiat would have sold many more grandes had they actually supported the car, but once the 500 came a long smashed their sales figures, as well as the 500L later on which was more targeted at small families, the Punto sales plummeted and fiat did their usual thing of 'if it don't sell don't bother' where as the likes of ford and Vauxhall keep the sales drive behind their cars at all times, if I go the half mile down the road to the ford garage the forecourt will be full of fiestas and focus, if I walk the 300 yards in the other direction to the ford garage, all you will see is fiat 500 and a couple 500x as that's all they are interested in selling. Jump back to 2007 when I was looking to buy my current Punto and the fiat garage had a forecourt full of shiny new grandes and they actually bothered to try and sell a few. At most now the fiat garage up the road will have a couple of second hand grandes.

n.b the escort was actually a very good car for the time but between 1996 and 1999 when they stopped making it sales had begun to flag but soon picked up again with the launch of the focus. The old KA was actually a very good little car, nice and easy to drive, cheap and sold in the millions, they really only updated it because just how old the car had become nearly 15 years without a new model, and look what happened updated for the sake of updating it and they now sell no where near as many as they used to. Fortunately the latest models of fiesta have proved a huge hit and ford still sell more fiestas in the UK than fiat sell cars.

AndyRKett said:

Totally disagree, fiat would have sold many more grandes had they actually supported the car, but once the 500 came a long smashed their sales figures, as well as the 500L later on which was more targeted at small families, the Punto sales plummeted and fiat did their usual thing of 'if it don't sell don't bother' where as the likes of ford and Vauxhall keep the sales drive behind their cars at all times, if I go the half mile down the road to the ford garage the forecourt will be full of fiestas and focus, if I walk the 300 yards in the other direction to the ford garage, all you will see is fiat 500 and a couple 500x as that's all they are interested in selling. Jump back to 2007 when I was looking to buy my current Punto and the fiat garage had a forecourt full of shiny new grandes and they actually bothered to try and sell a few. At most now the fiat garage up the road will have a couple of second hand grandes.

n.b the escort was actually a very good car for the time but between 1996 and 1999 when they stopped making it sales had begun to flag but soon picked up again with the launch of the focus. The old KA was actually a very good little car, nice and easy to drive, cheap and sold in the millions, they really only updated it because just how old the car had become nearly 15 years without a new model, and look what happened updated for the sake of updating it and they now sell no where near as many as they used to. Fortunately the latest models of fiesta have proved a huge hit and ford still sell more fiestas in the UK than fiat sell cars.

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That's not true, I remember the tv adverts for the MyLife edition, plus seeing magazine ads for the 2012 model, so Fiat were still trying until recently to promote the Punto. What I actually meant was that despite the fact that the mk2 Punto, Clio and Corsa were far, far superior, people kept buying the mk5 fiesta. For want of a better way of putting it, what I meant was that the mk5 fiesta was far more outdated in 2002 than the current Punto is now, if that makes sense?

With regards to the escort, what I was mainly referring to was its woeful passive safety. Its poor design been revealed in the early 90s, and Euro NCAP reminded people of it in the late 90s, yet people still chose them over the far safer mk4 Astra and Renault Megane.
With regards to the ka, it had a horrible, unrefined engine, and never had a passenger airbag as standard, but again, people still chose them over far superior rivals like the Daewoo Matiz, Fiat Panda and Toyota Aygo. That's what I meant.

puntofan01 said:

That's not true, I remember the tv adverts for the MyLife edition, plus seeing magazine ads for the 2012 model, so Fiat were still trying until recently to promote the Punto. What I actually meant was that despite the fact that the mk2 Punto, Clio and Corsa were far, far superior, people kept buying the mk5 fiesta. For want of a better way of putting it, what I meant was that the mk5 fiesta was far more outdated in 2002 than the current Punto is now, if that makes sense?

With regards to the escort, what I was mainly referring to was its woeful passive safety. Its poor design been revealed in the early 90s, and Euro NCAP reminded people of it in the late 90s, yet people still chose them over the far safer mk4 Astra and Renault Megane.
With regards to the ka, it had a horrible, unrefined engine, and never had a passenger airbag as standard, but again, people still chose them over far superior rivals like the Daewoo Matiz, Fiat Panda and Toyota Aygo. That's what I meant.

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I think your spouting hatred against Fords again that is unfounded by never having owned or driven one.

Also your logic is wrong. Ford stuck a Ford badge on the Fiat 500 and guess what? It hasn't sold very well because it's one of the worst cars in Fords line up.

And I will defend Fords because me first car was a brand new 2001 Fiesta Flight 1.3 - that car would probably see your 1.4GP off the lights! It was a good car. Following this I had a fantastic MK1 2001 Focus Ghia 2.0i petrol. Great car, owned alongside a 147 Lusso. The 147 looked good but never drove or performed like the Focus.

Following the Focus I wanted an economical well speced car, hence why I opted for a 2007 GP Elegenza 1.9. Terrible mistake, I remember worrying if it would be reliable when I bought it. It's turned out to be a dog. Which leads me onto my current car I needed an estate for the dog.

Fiat offered nothing, and I had a terrible experience with them. I wasn't keen on the looks of the MK3 Focus. Considered VAG cars, however very expensive for miserly kit. Looked at a Ceed wasn't powerful enough.

Spotted a year old MK3 Focus 2.0tdci 163 Titanium X for £16500 with 9k on the clock. Fully speced with xenon lights, privacy glass in white, and every conceivable bit of kit. The test drive sealed it when the dealer handed me the key to go out on my own.

Several years later at 42k miles, nothing has gone wrong, nothing has broke, it quite happily returns late 40's mpg but still hit 60 in the 8 seconds region and is a fantastic car to drive.

Yes it's just a Ford, but it has been very good.

Some I could not say about the GP.

My mom recently traded in an Audi A1 1.6 tdi with faults for a Fiesta Titanium Eco boost and she loves it.

JimbbobW1977 said:

I think your spouting hatred against Fords again that is unfounded by never having owned or driven one.

Also your logic is wrong. Ford stuck a Ford badge on the Fiat 500 and guess what? It hasn't sold very well because it's one of the worst cars in Fords line up.

And I will defend Fords because me first car was a brand new 2001 Fiesta Flight 1.3 - that car would probably see your 1.4GP off the lights! It was a good car. Following this I had a fantastic MK1 2001 Focus Ghia 2.0i petrol. Great car, owned alongside a 147 Lusso. The 147 looked good but never drove or performed like the Focus.

Following the Focus I wanted an economical well speced car, hence why I opted for a 2007 GP Elegenza 1.9. Terrible mistake, I remember worrying if it would be reliable when I bought it. It's turned out to be a dog. Which leads me onto my current car I needed an estate for the dog.

Fiat offered nothing, and I had a terrible experience with them. I wasn't keen on the looks of the MK3 Focus. Considered VAG cars, however very expensive for miserly kit. Looked at a Ceed wasn't powerful enough.

Spotted a year old MK3 Focus 2.0tdci 163 Titanium X for £16500 with 9k on the clock. Fully speced with xenon lights, privacy glass in white, and every conceivable bit of kit. The test drive sealed it when the dealer handed me the key to go out on my own.

Several years later at 42k miles, nothing has gone wrong, nothing has broke, it quite happily returns late 40's mpg but still hit 60 in the 8 seconds region and is a fantastic car to drive.

Yes it's just a Ford, but it has been very good.

Some I could not say about the GP.

My mom recently traded in an Audi A1 1.6 tdi with faults for a Fiesta Titanium Eco boost and she loves it.

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Nope, it's merely casual observations.

Granted, I am surprised the current ka hasn't been a major seller.

Lol! I doubt it would be quicker than my Grande: it's only advantage is being lighter. I do recall seeing the performance figures for a fiesta 1.3 once, same power as my old mk2b, yet slower and a lot thirstier. (And that was back in the days when official mpg figures actually meant something!) The mk1 Focus is still a nice car, ford got that design spot on. The 147 is a beautiful looking car, but I remember seeing the picture of it from Euro NCAP: it's terrifying!

I traded my old mk2b in for my Grande Punto Eleganza: I loved my mk2b, but my Grande is fantastic. I'd wanted a Grande for years, and it doesn't disappoint: as a result of owning this plus my old mk2, I am determined to stick with Fiat for as long as possible.

With regards to VAG products, I agree with you: they are very overrated.

JimbbobW1977 said:

I think your spouting hatred against Fords again that is unfounded by never having owned or driven one.

Also your logic is wrong. Ford stuck a Ford badge on the Fiat 500 and guess what? It hasn't sold very well because it's one of the worst cars in Fords line up.

And I will defend Fords because me first car was a brand new 2001 Fiesta Flight 1.3 - that car would probably see your 1.4GP off the lights! It was a good car. Following this I had a fantastic MK1 2001 Focus Ghia 2.0i petrol. Great car, owned alongside a 147 Lusso. The 147 looked good but never drove or performed like the Focus.

Following the Focus I wanted an economical well speced car, hence why I opted for a 2007 GP Elegenza 1.9. Terrible mistake, I remember worrying if it would be reliable when I bought it. It's turned out to be a dog. Which leads me onto my current car I needed an estate for the dog.

Fiat offered nothing, and I had a terrible experience with them. I wasn't keen on the looks of the MK3 Focus. Considered VAG cars, however very expensive for miserly kit. Looked at a Ceed wasn't powerful enough.

Spotted a year old MK3 Focus 2.0tdci 163 Titanium X for £16500 with 9k on the clock. Fully speced with xenon lights, privacy glass in white, and every conceivable bit of kit. The test drive sealed it when the dealer handed me the key to go out on my own.

Several years later at 42k miles, nothing has gone wrong, nothing has broke, it quite happily returns late 40's mpg but still hit 60 in the 8 seconds region and is a fantastic car to drive.

Yes it's just a Ford, but it has been very good.

Some I could not say about the GP.

My mom recently traded in an Audi A1 1.6 tdi with faults for a Fiesta Titanium Eco boost and she loves it.

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Gotta say the older Ford's did have hilarious build quality, things took an up swing at the Focus mk1 but the KA was a low point. Not that it was a bad design as such they were brilliant at what they were, but also built to last maybe 7 years if not garaged before major welding required. My ex had one when I had a mk1 punto and the step down in quality was amazing, I didn't know a car could be built with that little thought for longevity. Mot always required welding, the electrics...well an example would be the rear cluster, rather than separate bulb holders on wires fitted into the back of a cluster like most cars. It had a single circuit board made of a piece of metal the size of the cluster with a connection at the base and bulb holders screwed in. Each circuit was separated by a mm gap from each other. Fine but the unit was sealed with foam that lost all waterproofing capabilities after about 4 years. Water then got in and bridged the gaps so you'd find indicators and brakes that flashed alternately, and front indicators that came on when you pressed the brake pedal and the water would also collect in the bottom connector shorting the whole lot out eventually. At least you could fix the engine with a hammer.

This is obviously the bad old days my dad bought brand new focus 2 in 05 and still has it and it is still 98% of the car he picked up all those years ago..anything pre 98 was disposable.

My GP's back lights used to flash like a disco because the water pipe for the rear washer split filling the light cluster up with water.

All the fords i had never had rear washer or a wiper

puntofan01 said:

I traded my old mk2b in for my Grande Punto Eleganza: I loved my mk2b, but my Grande is fantastic. I'd wanted a Grande for years, and it doesn't disappoint: as a result of owning this plus my old mk2, I am determined to stick with Fiat for as long as possible.

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You seriously need to go and drive some different cars, old and new. You sound like a broken record, in a "we love the leader" kinda way. You made a comparison further up about the mk4 Astra being superior to the escort, and base your opinion by all accounts on some safety figures, having driven many of both these cars I can assure you now that the mk4 Astra was a seriously terrible car a nasty car to drive and a nasty place to be. The escort even in 1999 was still a better looking car and drove very nicely plus the zetec engine was a proper little gem.

You witter on about your grande but let's be honest most people with £15k to buy a new car are not going to go and buy a Punto these days and back in 2005 when the grande came out it was still a long way from being the best car in its class. People buy these cars because they are cheap and affordable and meet their needs. If your dream car was a grande then you clearly have set yourself a very low bar to aim for. If I every buy my dream car (which has a prancing horse on the badge) I will most likely immediately find a new dream car.

You need to go and drive some new cars too, a few fords a few VW a BMW or two or maybe some French models, you'll soon see that there are big differences between on manufacture and another. That's why a brand new top end Punto now can be bought for under £8k while a new Middle range mini or a golf or a fiesta will cost you about twice that. Consider there is a reason for this and he has little to do with value for money

JimbbobW1977 said:

My GP's back lights used to flash like a disco because the water pipe for the rear washer split filling the light cluster up with water.

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There's a difference to a fault causing a knock on effect and something being designed in such a way failure is inevitable. The electrics on a KA were the second one, as evidenced by many KAs that have survived this long having the exact same issues as I had in 2007. They were cheap cars and built as such, Ford has come a long way as have most manufacturers since the early 00s and late 90s.

AndyRKett said:

You need to go and drive some new cars too, a few fords a few VW a BMW or two or maybe some French models, you'll soon see that there are big differences between on manufacture and another. That's why a brand new top end Punto now can be bought for under £8k while a new Middle range mini or a golf or a fiesta will cost you about twice that. Consider there is a reason for this and he has little to do with value for money

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I used to sometimes move my old manageress' 10 plate polo, and those few yards were quite enough: it was a nice looking car, but no way could I live with that steering. I asked my boss about it, and apparently, it never weighted up noticeably.

My 1st driving instructor had a Peugeot 206, and well, it left me hoping that I never have to drive another Peugeot as long as I live!!

puntofan01 said:

I used to sometimes move my old manageress' 10 plate polo, and those few yards were quite enough: it was a nice looking car, but no way could I live with that steering. I asked my boss about it, and apparently, it never weighted up noticeably.

My 1st driving instructor had a Peugeot 206, and well, it left me hoping that I never have to drive another Peugeot as long as I live!!

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All modern cars will have variable assistance, so I wouldn't judge steering weight on a small car park drive. Most systems give full assistance at sub 10mph which drops off as the speed increases. You may not perceive it happening if it's a well designed system, but it does.

Also a Peugeot 206 is not a modern car, (much as I dislike defending anything PSA I do not get on with the OHs DS3) you can't judge a manufacturers current standard on the products designed 20 years ago.

puntofan01 said:

I used to sometimes move my old manageress' 10 plate polo, and those few yards were quite enough: it was a nice looking car, but no way could I live with that steering. I asked my boss about it, and apparently, it never weighted up noticeably.

My 1st driving instructor had a Peugeot 206, and well, it left me hoping that I never have to drive another Peugeot as long as I live!!

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You've rather brilliantly proved my point.

coming on a fiat forum and having a dig at some one for thinking his fiat is the best thing since sliced bread is like going to football and sitting in the wrong end. the other team may have never won a match all season but their fans will still be cheering them on.

There's a reason there's 10,000's more Golf's and Focusses on the roads than Fiat's...

Ignorance isn't always bliss. The GP overall is a dreadful car. Personally If I had £30k to spend on an all rounder I'd have Golf GTI / R Design too, although I can afford one I've got better / more important things to spend my money on .

ChrisUK said:

I've got better / more important things to spend my money on .

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hookers n coke, like a Lord

you could buy 2 bungalows in west clacton for 30k

dave said:

you could buy 2 bungalows in west clacton for 30k

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Who'd want too?