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Syria - waht to do?

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Syria - waht to do?

When I was still instructing on a regular basis I had 3 pupils who were Pakistani born but had lived in this country for a long time. They all had to take an extended re-test after convictions for various motoring offences, including drink driving. They were all middle aged and had lived in Pakistan for over 50% of their lives.

They all stated that they wished they'd been born here with the opportunities that exist in this country. One stated that when it was time for him to pay his Income Tax he would take the (Pakistani) tax inspector to lunch and taking the amount that he was expected to pay as a starting point, would then divvy up the amount on the following basis: 1/3 to the Government, 1/3 to the tax inspector and 1/3 to be kept by the taxpayer. If the amount you were expected to pay wasn't very much, the Inspector couldn't be bothered to come out and meet you, you just paid the full amount.

A man in his 40s I meet through work on a regular basis has been in this country since he was 30 years old, and a couple of years ago we had a discussion whereby he thought there was nothing wrong with paying a bribe to get a planning application approved or to get to the head of a queue for an operation, or even to get out of a criminal prosecution.

We spoke this evening and his position had changed somewhat. He said that in order for a Muslim to commit to Jihad there had to be certain things he was deprived of. Principally he has to be prevented from praying and following the main pillars of Islam. In his opinion, there was nothing in the West, be it Europe or the US that would prevent that, Therefore there is no cause for Jihad to be carried out against the west. The other main reason a Muslim should embark on Jihad is if Islam itself was under attack, which is one of the reasons some gave for their actions. As far as he was concerned, Islam is not under attack, although Muslims are, and in most cases by other Muslims.

He also thought that Muslims in the UK should visit some other countries, including some in the Middle and Far East. Then come back and shut the f**k up!
 
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dave said:
all are as bad as each other they all have their bad people christians are no exception, look how some of them treat LGBT, wonen who have an abortion and the unmarried co habitating

wast that who northern Ireland thing Christians fighting each other?
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While it's true that all religions have their baddies as well as their goodies, there are some things that are against their rules or beliefs. Muslims and Jews are not allowed to eat pork products or shellfish. Catholics are (were) not allowed to divorce and when they were it had to be with the permission of the church. The Catholic church is struggling with the whole gay/lesbian debate and, although I don't profess to really understand the position, consider abortion is murder. It's also worth bearing in mind that a hell of a lot of agnostics and atheists also believe that abortion at any stage of pregnancy is murder as well.

My mother is a Catholic whereas my dad was brought up as C of E. I'm not sure how they got married in a church (this was 1955) but when my mum came up to Mancland after they were wed, she applied for a job as a teacher, first at a C of E school but was not given the job because of the fact she was a Catholic. She then applied to a Catholic school and when she was asked if her husband would be attending Mass with her was told in no uncertain terms that the job would not be offered to her as her husband was not a Catholic. She petitioned the Bishop of Salford who was the head of the RC in the area and he interceded on her behalf.

Although I went to Catholic primary schools, when it came to my secondary education my mother stunned my primary head by telling him I wouldn't be moving on to a Catholic school as, despite his objections, she was more concerned by my academic welfare than my spiritual.

Northern Ireland never was about religion, just as British involvement in Afghanistan wasn't about Christian against Muslim. It was simply about where the respective people lived and what their political aims were rather than which church you went to. If my memory of the history of Ireland is correct, one of the first campaigners for independance from Britain, Sir Roger Casementwas baptised a Protestant, although secretly re-baptised a Catholic as a child. After the death of his father he was raised by Protestant relatives. The Church of Ireland has congregations in Eire.
 
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The Beard said:
While it's true that all religions have their baddies as well as their goodies, there are some things that are against their rules or beliefs. Muslims and Jews are not allowed to eat pork products or shellfish. Catholics are (were) not allowed to divorce and when they were it had to be with the permission of the church. The Catholic church is struggling with the whole gay/lesbian debate and, although I don't profess to really understand the position, consider abortion is murder. It's also worth bearing in mind that a hell of a lot of agnostics and atheists also believe that abortion at any stage of pregnancy is murder as well.

My mother is a Catholic whereas my dad was brought up as C of E. I'm not sure how they got married in a church (this was 1955) but when my mum came up to Mancland after they were wed, she applied for a job as a teacher, first at a C of E school but was not given the job because of the fact she was a Catholic. She then applied to a Catholic school and when she was asked if her husband would be attending Mass with her was told in no uncertain terms that the job would not be offered to her as her husband was not a Catholic. She petitioned the Bishop of Salford who was the head of the RC in the area and he interceded on her behalf.

Although I went to Catholic primary schools, when it came to my secondary education my mother stunned my primary head by telling him I wouldn't be moving on to a Catholic school as, despite his objections, she was more concerned by my academic welfare than my spiritual.

Northern Ireland never was about religion, just as British involvement in Afghanistan wasn't about Christian against Muslim. It was simply about where the respective people lived and what their political aims were rather than which church you went to. If my memory of the history of Ireland is correct, one of the first campaigners for independance from Britain, Sir Roger Casementwas baptised a Protestant, although secretly re-baptised a Catholic as a child. After the death of his father he was raised by Protestant relatives. The Church of Ireland has congregations in Eire.
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Thats not true, the very reason that the troubles began in Ireland before the partition was because the Catholics believed they were being persecuted out of existence by the Protestants.. the mostly nationalist Catholics have always fought the British over the policy of home rule but they fought each other because of religion.
I've spent a lot of time in Eire and Northern Ireland and read a lot in an attempt to understand the motivations and causes behind the troubles.
 
In Sri Lanka they all complain about government bribery but then pay the police "fines" on the spot for traffic offences or local government for a favourable decisions. This is the way of the world in many countries and although not as bad here it does go on especially in people who have come from countries where this is the norm.

UK Muslims in many cases do not feel this is there home and they constantly want to make us into the places they ran away from, I don't get it unless it is a bigger plan to breed non Muslims out. We will have a civil war here over religion in the not too distant future, maybe not in my lifetime but certainly in my children's lifetime and we will lose if we do not change our of dealing with these issues. Too much tolerance is going to be our downfall
 
Gavv8 said:
Thats not true, the very reason that the troubles began in Ireland before the partition was because the Catholics believed they were being persecuted out of existence by the Protestants.. the mostly nationalist Catholics have always fought the British over the policy of home rule but they fought each other because of religion.
I've spent a lot of time in Eire and Northern Ireland and read a lot in an attempt to understand the motivations and causes behind the troubles.
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Catholics and Protestants manage to co-exist in the south without killing each other and I don't suppose the IRA and their cohorts bothered about whether they were killing and maiming Catholics or Protestants, Jews or Muslims, Hindus or Buddhists when they planted bombs in Manchester, Birmingham or London. The people they did want to kill, maim or bankrupt were British, pure and simple.

A few years ago two Manchester men were working for a local company that had been set up by Irish immigrants in the '60s. It has an Irish name with offices in the UK and Ireland, yet when they were in Southern Ireland on a job they had to park up for the night near a small town. They went and had a couple of pints and a meal in a pub and while there they were approached by a local man who told them that Englishmen weren't welcome there and had better move on as something unpleasant might happen to them. They spoke to the local Gardai who said that they'd been given good advice. The fact both men were Catholics, in fact I'd been at primary school with one of them, was neither here nor there. Religion is an accident of birth and history.

What we do have is people who manipulate religion and the people who practice it. Religion is simply the lowest common denominator. Power is more important. The people who grew up with the power were those with the influence, and cronyism and nepotism ruled in Northern Ireland. I would say that this, more than religion, per se, is what brought about the new "Troubles". If you are in a position of power in a sectarian society then you will make sure your friends and family benefit before others. If you are not in that circle then you may object and if you think your concerns are not being addressed you may take more direct or violent action. If you have people who will supply you with a rallying call and the means of taking action with weapons/rocks/explosive.

What we are seeing now in Iraq is fuelled by al-Maliki's lack of inclusion of other groups. Forget Sunni and Shia, instead think disposessed and powerful; poor and wealthy; excluded and included. In other words, the have-nots and the haves.
 
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The Beard said:
Catholics and Protestants manage to co-exist in the south without killing each other and I don't suppose the IRA and their cohorts bothered about whether they were killing and maiming Catholics or Protestants, Jews or Muslims, Hindus or Buddhists when they planted bombs in Manchester, Birmingham or London. The people they did want to kill, maim or bankrupt were British, pure and simple.

A few years ago two Manchester men were working for a local company that had been set up by Irish immigrants in the '60s. It has an Irish name with offices in the UK and Ireland, yet when they were in Southern Ireland on a job they had to park up for the night near a small town. They went and had a couple of pints and a meal in a pub and while there they were approached by a local man who told them that Englishmen weren't welcome there and had better move on as something unpleasant might happen to them. They spoke to the local Gardai who said that they'd been given good advice. The fact both men were Catholics, in fact I'd been at primary school with one of them, was neither here nor there. Religion is an accident of birth and history.

What we do have is people who manipulate religion and the people who practice it. Religion is simply the lowest common denominator. Power is more important. The people who grew up with the power were those with the influence, and cronyism and nepotism ruled in Northern Ireland. I would say that this, more than religion, per se, is what brought about the new "Troubles". If you are in a position of power in a sectarian society then you will make sure your friends and family benefit before others. If you are not in that circle then you may object and if you think your concerns are not being addressed you may take more direct or violent action. If you have people who will supply you with a rallying call and the means of taking action with weapons/rocks/explosive.

What we are seeing now in Iraq is fuelled by al-Maliki's lack of inclusion of other groups. Forget Sunni and Shia, instead think disposessed and powerful; poor and wealthy; excluded and included. In other words, the have-nots and the haves.
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Thats a shame as in all the years i've been travelling and staying in Northern and Southern Ireland i've never come across anything like that, in fact i plan to retire somewhere in the south one day.
 
It may be the exception rather than the rule, but Anthony Booth, father of Cherie (wife of former PM Tony Blair) moved to Blacklion County Cavan after he'd retired, and, unless my memory is playing tricks on me, suffered quite a lot of harassment which resulted in him moving back to Mancland.

In fairness, Blacklion is virtually on the border with The North, and my parents have been twice to Ireland without issue, although on one occasion they stayed with a school friend of my mother's. Equally an old friend of mine spent 5 years living and working there and had no problems.
 
I am frustrated (if that is a strong enough word) that when I started this thread 1 year ago I could see clearly that supporting the so-called "Arab Spring" uprising was naive to say the least and would create a perfect vacuum for radicals to fill. And guess what? It has happened.
I wish the "vast majority of muslims are peace-loving" that we keep hearing about would be more vocal in their condemnation of this barbarism that is being carried on. If a mob can turn out to complain that Sainsburys are selling Kosher food (as if that all comes from Israel!!) then why no mob to complain about wholesale massacres of Sunni's?
I wish I had an answer to all this mess, but if our Special Forces are not involved in trying to find and permanently retiring these alleged 500 British Citizens that are involved then I will be very disappointed.
 
The Beard said:
It may be the exception rather than the rule, but Anthony Booth, father of Cherie (wife of former PM Tony Blair) moved to Blacklion County Cavan after he'd retired, and, unless my memory is playing tricks on me, suffered quite a lot of harassment which resulted in him moving back to Mancland.

It could also be that he was a loud mouth with an even louder-mouthed daughter and they wanted shot of him!
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The terrorists are only gaining strength because they have excellent funding, thats where the attention and action needs concentrating...no money= no weapons/transport/food/water/camera's to post video's on youtube.
 
Gavv8 said:
The terrorists are only gaining strength because they have excellent funding, thats where the attention and action needs concentrating...no money= no weapons/transport/food/water/camera's to post video's on youtube.
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I heard a theory that Assad has done a deal with IS nutters that allows them to sell oil to his regime in exchange for them leaving him in place.
This along with Sunni's from other countries are funding IS on the quiet.


Just like the old Northern Ireland days the hardiners are in this for the "kudos" (without the gang they would be nobodys) and for money and power. It is gangsterism masquerading as religion.
 
pooroldcodger said:
I heard a theory that Assad has done a deal with IS nutters that allows them to sell oil to his regime in exchange for them leaving him in place.
This along with Sunni's from other countries are funding IS on the quiet.


Just like the old Northern Ireland days the hardiners are in this for the "kudos" (without the gang they would be nobodys) and for money and power. It is gangsterism masquerading as religion.
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This would tie in with the Americans trying to do a deal with Assad too, also wouldn't be suprised if the Saudi's haven't done the same deal.
 
It's very tempting to let them go ahead and create their own "caliphate" / ghetto (take your pick) in the desert, and then see how the johnny come lately Jihadis who were until recently in Macdonalds and Primark get on living in a medieval paradise. If they want the authentic traditional Muslim middle -age experience then presumably they won't be needing the internet or electricity either?
 
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