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Technical grande punto 1.4 Dualogic ecu issue

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Technical grande punto 1.4 Dualogic ecu issue

Hi,

that's much clear like this ;-) My understanding of the Dual-logic transmission is that the clutch is actuated by a cylinder the same way as a manual gearbox is (please someone corrects me if I'm wrong).
Can you see any bleeder on that clutch cylinder assembly ? Air in the system could be the cause of insufficient stroke ...

Regards, Bernie
 
Bernievarian said:
Hi,

that's much clear like this ;-) My understanding of the Dual-logic transmission is that the clutch is actuated by a cylinder the same way as a manual gearbox is (please someone corrects me if I'm wrong).
Can you see any bleeder on that clutch cylinder assembly ? Air in the system could be the cause of insufficient stroke ...

Regards, Bernie
Click to expand...

Its all built into the actuators and stuff even after running a bleed through multiecuscan its still throwing same issues iv got some screen shots of what happens now

thanks,

Callum
 

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I also have the same car as this with what looks to be the same problem.
whilst messing with it I have discovered that i can get the car to go into gear by pushing in the clutch leaver assembly on the gearbox robot by hand when the engine is off, the only problem is i have to do this to get it back into neural.

Attached are the details from my ecu, i can see that there are a number of differences but not sure what really to look for? also yours are from a static engine, i took mine while it was running.
Also when i run the production service calibration i get the following error '5th - 6th sel failed'

2249.jpg
Stats.jpg
 
Last edited:
JFerris321 said:
I also have the same car as this with what looks to be the same problem.
whilst messing with it I have discovered that i can get the car to go into gear by pushing in the clutch leaver assembly on the gearbox robot by hand when the engine is off, the only problem is i have to do this to get it back into neural.

Attached are the details from my ecu, i can see that there are a number of differences but not sure what really to look for? also yours are from a static engine, i took mine while it was running.
Also when i run the production service calibration i get the following error '5th - 6th sel failed'

2249.jpg
Stats.jpg
Click to expand...

Hi

I also started off with the microprocessor fault before i tried a clutch calibration i will try what you said to get it into neautral im guessing you mean push it back into the actuator assembly. I believe mine is a worn clutch but coukd even be the clutch actuator gone i suppose
 
The way the clutch is actuated depends of the robot and gearbox.

For the 6 speed M20 gearbox the robot is the CFC300 in this system

The Master-Slave system hydraulic fluid pushes a piston which then push DOT4 brake fluid which in turn pushes the CSC (Clutch slave cylinder) actuator inside the clutch housing. The clutch position sensor is incorporated into the Master-Slave system

For the 5 speed C514 gearbox the robot is the CFC328.
Hydraulic fluid pushes the CSC (Clutch slave cylinder) actuator directly.

I dont know about the CFC328 but for the CFC300 there is a bleed valve on the Master-Slave system.´

The only way to be certain of what is causing the issue would be to inspect the clutch.
 

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tonico77 said:
The way the clutch is actuated depends of the robot and gearbox.

For the 6 speed M20 gearbox the robot is the CFC300 in this system

The Master-Slave system hydraulic fluid pushes a piston which then push DOT4 brake fluid which in turn pushes the CSC (Clutch slave cylinder) actuator inside the clutch housing. The clutch position sensor is incorporated into the Master-Slave system

For the 5 speed C514 gearbox the robot is the CFC328.
Hydraulic fluid pushes the CSC (Clutch slave cylinder) actuator directly.

I dont know about the CFC328 but for the CFC300 there is a bleed valve on the Master-Slave system.´

The only way to be certain of what is causing the issue would be to inspect the clutch.
Click to expand...

Hi,

MY gearbox would be the 5 speed which has no bleed valve on it its all done through the selespeed oil. There is a option for clutch drain which bleeds the air through on multiecuscan iv ran this multiple time with no luck. If i leaver the clutch arm back with ignition on (engine off) i can select all gears. but cant do this whilst engine is running. I will be pulling the box out next week.

If i try to do a clutch self-calibration get status FF which means No reply from ECU which makes me also think maybe there is a ecu issue.

Thanks,

Callum
 

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If you can get it into gear with engine off, but not with it running, it's clear the clutch doesn't engage (at least no as far as it should).

How do these value change when the clutch is activated?1.PNG


I would say it's either
-the clutch isn't pressed because of lack of pressure (pump or air in system);
-the clutch is pressed but a contact or potentiometer something is not sending the info to the selespeed controll unit.
 
Last edited:
Bernievarian said:
Hi Callum,

as Auricks suggested, the clutch potentiometer signal can be wrong, i.e telling teh ECU the clutch is not disengaged while it actually is, so the ECU would NOT allow the gear engagement...
Have a look here:

http://www.alfa147selespeed.co.za/tips_guides/how-to-test-your-sensors-potentiometer/

It's for a 147 selespeed but you get the idea...

Regards, Bernie
Click to expand...

I had the same idea on my car, i did not know how to test the pots as i do not know their correct values how ever i did noticed the car has 3 of them and they are all the same model so i tried swapping them around on the car, how ever this has not changed any of the symptoms.
 
3 pots make sense, 1 for gear group selection (1-2/3-4/5-R), 1 for gear engagement (1-3-5/2-4-R) and the last for the clutch engaged/disengaged.
As you swapped them with no result it seems they're ok, but still, the wiring/connection might be bad.
To be absolutely sure it's not the poti or cabling, I would remove it from the robot, rotate the sloted shaft and check with MES the value read by the ECU (hopefully MES shows it...)

Regards, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix or understand your issue, hit the thanks button, it's free !!
 
I have removed and tested the two sensors at the top of the unit and they both have very close to the same readings. The one with the arrow pointing to it in the pic is the one for the clutch.
The readings start at about 0.95 kΩ and raise steadily up to 2.4 kΩ before they then drop drastically down to an open circuit just before the end of their rotational ability. Both sensors test to be within 0.01 kΩ of each other.

20170311_172352.jpg
 
I dont know if this is valid for the CFC328 robot but for the CFC300 when you install the pot you are supposed to preload it.
JFerris321 also your hydraulic pressure seems very high. 62bar

"The pump is activated when the accumulated pressure drops under 40 bars and is stopped (off) when the accumulated pressure is 50 bars"
 

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tonico77 said:
I dont know if this is valid for the CFC328 robot but for the CFC300 when you install the pot you are supposed to preload it.
JFerris321 also your hydraulic pressure seems very high. 62bar

"The pump is activated when the accumulated pressure drops under 40 bars and is stopped (off) when the accumulated pressure is 50 bars"
Click to expand...
I have found the following online which supports that the pressure is to high, however i have also found information that suggests that the system has a recovery mode and when this is active the running pressure is increased beyond normal parameters. Also when the error was first captured the pressure was only at 48psi which from what i have read is the optimal pressure.

"
CFC328 fitted to the C514 gearbox (500, Panda, Grande Punto)
• Working hydraulic pressure from 41 to 51 bars
• Operating temperature from -30˚C to + 125 ˚C
• Cranking is must be possible also at -30°C
• The pump flow rate is 0.8 l/min at 60°C
• The accumulator volume is 280 cm³ preloaded at 27 bar at 25°C
Accumulator is fitted to solenoid valve unit.
"

In regards to preloading the pots, there is only one way they will go on and this requires you to do very much the same as what is shown in your attached document so i am pretty sure they are on correctly.
 
JFerris321 said:
I have found the following online which supports that the pressure is to high, however i have also found information that suggests that the system has a recovery mode and when this is active the running pressure is increased beyond normal parameters. Also when the error was first captured the pressure was only at 48psi which from what i have read is the optimal pressure.

"
CFC328 fitted to the C514 gearbox (500, Panda, Grande Punto)
• Working hydraulic pressure from 41 to 51 bars
• Operating temperature from -30˚C to + 125 ˚C
• Cranking is must be possible also at -30°C
• The pump flow rate is 0.8 l/min at 60°C
• The accumulator volume is 280 cm³ preloaded at 27 bar at 25°C
Accumulator is fitted to solenoid valve unit.
"

In regards to preloading the pots, there is only one way they will go on and this requires you to do very much the same as what is shown in your attached document so i am pretty sure they are on correctly.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I pulled the gearbox out yesterday to find the clutch release arm has bent and snapped.
 

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Thanks for posting the result of your investigations !
Next question is WHY and HOW this arm did bend !?

Regards, Bernie
 
Bernievarian said:
Thanks for posting the result of your investigations !
Next question is WHY and HOW this arm did bend !?

Regards, Bernie
Click to expand...


Thats exactly what im thinking unless it happens to be a defect in the metal or weld.

iv got a new arm and bushes coming from fiat tomorrow £63 inc vat so not to bad and sachs clutch kit for £48

I will let you know what happens when i get the box back in.

Thanks,

Callum
 
Hi Callum,

thanks for the update and congrats for your pugnacity !

Now, with your experience, could that bent shaft have been seen from outside ??

Regards, Bernie
 
CallumColes said:
Hi All,

Just to update replacing the clutch, clutch release arm and bushes the car now drives sweet and has only cost me £120 all in
Click to expand...

Im glad you managed to find the problem, thinking it has got to be worth checking to see if i have the same issue with my clutch.
Was the clutch hard to get at and did you remove the gearbox or the engine to access it. I am presuming you removed the gearbox however it would be handy to have an idea of what else has to be moved to access it. Would be grateful if you could advise on what to do as the only transmissions i have worked on in the past has been on much older cars where i took the engine out to do it and i no longer own the equipment to do that.
 
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