Technical 2007 GP 1.9 Multijet 130 starting problems.
- Thread starter Thrux
- Start date
Currently reading:
Technical 2007 GP 1.9 Multijet 130 starting problems.
Marcuspuntus
New member
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2016
- Messages
- 5
- Points
- 1
Hi Thrux, have you had any joy with your car, ours has been better with the colder weather but still has the fault, I have cleaned the EGR valve but it did not need it, it is going back into a specialist this week but they have already had it twice, they are doing a free diagnostics but I am not convinced they will find the problem..:bang:
burrowsdeano
Member
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2012
- Messages
- 214
- Points
- 109
If either of you are near southampton I could take a look for you. Spent nearly 20 years in a dealer and have experienced many different faults with these over the years and I'm now out on my own as a specialist so like I said if your near Southampton hampshire just message me on here
Thrux
New member
burrowsdeano,
Thanks for the offer but I am 200 miles away.
Thanks for the offer but I am 200 miles away.
Thrux
New member
Hi Marcus,
Sorry about the delay but I haven't had the time to check this problem any further. Like you the colder weather helps as the engine once cold starts without any problem. I am just living with the fault at the moment.
Sorry about the delay but I haven't had the time to check this problem any further. Like you the colder weather helps as the engine once cold starts without any problem. I am just living with the fault at the moment.
Jackslider
New member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2016
- Messages
- 2
- Points
- 1
Hi Thrux
What is the latest with your starting problem - any further on finding a solution? I have the same model Punto and the same problem and I read about and spoken to other owners with the same. After reading forums etc. I live with mine as it is. All I have done was put in a new battery with more cold cranking amps but that made no difference. I now wait for the red light on the water temp gauge on the dashboard to go out before turning it over and it works most of the time. Another owner I spoke to turns the key on then off then on again before turning it over and he said this works for him most of the time so try these things - it won't fix the problem but hopefully it makes living with it easier. My best for 2017.
What is the latest with your starting problem - any further on finding a solution? I have the same model Punto and the same problem and I read about and spoken to other owners with the same. After reading forums etc. I live with mine as it is. All I have done was put in a new battery with more cold cranking amps but that made no difference. I now wait for the red light on the water temp gauge on the dashboard to go out before turning it over and it works most of the time. Another owner I spoke to turns the key on then off then on again before turning it over and he said this works for him most of the time so try these things - it won't fix the problem but hopefully it makes living with it easier. My best for 2017.
Hi,
I have a 2007 27k miles grande 1.9 and have lived with the same issue for 2 years, car has always had an uprated battery from new.
I have the exact same issue and I believe the starter motor is the cause. I think the starter motor is drawing too many amps when cranking which in turn drops the voltage to the ECU which then does not function properly and will not start. To test this theory I jump started my car to effectively double battery capacity when I know it would do the usual cranking and then white smoke once started. Car started first time. The other cars lights etc all dimmed heavily indicating a heavy amp draw. Buying a bigger battery just masks the issue. Starter motor will draw less amps once its warm, so will the engine be slightly easier to crank after a couple of goes. Very warm engine not stood for more than 3 hours, same is true. Only the easy starting when cold I cannot explain. Anyone got any suggestions? No one suspects the starter motor because it cranks and the car does eventually start. Anyway getting new starter motor fitted this week so will let you know. Recon from West Lancs Auto Electrics, £98. 18 months guarantee
Cheers
Jensen
I have a 2007 27k miles grande 1.9 and have lived with the same issue for 2 years, car has always had an uprated battery from new.
I have the exact same issue and I believe the starter motor is the cause. I think the starter motor is drawing too many amps when cranking which in turn drops the voltage to the ECU which then does not function properly and will not start. To test this theory I jump started my car to effectively double battery capacity when I know it would do the usual cranking and then white smoke once started. Car started first time. The other cars lights etc all dimmed heavily indicating a heavy amp draw. Buying a bigger battery just masks the issue. Starter motor will draw less amps once its warm, so will the engine be slightly easier to crank after a couple of goes. Very warm engine not stood for more than 3 hours, same is true. Only the easy starting when cold I cannot explain. Anyone got any suggestions? No one suspects the starter motor because it cranks and the car does eventually start. Anyway getting new starter motor fitted this week so will let you know. Recon from West Lancs Auto Electrics, £98. 18 months guarantee
Cheers
Jensen
Last edited:
Im commenting to follow this, I have startup problems, cleaned EGR, replace MAP, cleaned MAF, trying battery next, but would like to see how this starter motor replacement comes along
Bernievarian
Prominent member
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2017
- Messages
- 2,993
- Points
- 654
@ reply #26 , says twice pre-heating does the trick...
I believe that when COLD, the ECU gives order to glow plugs to get on, here maybe 3 are still good but the engine will start anyway.
On HOT: no need to pre-heat, engine starts.
Warm: still need pre-heat, but the ECU is giving a shorter ON order due to the higher engine temp compared to cold... ( THIS IS ABSOLUTELY A GUESS !! ) and the engine doesn't start immediately, but will after 2 or 3 pre-heats...
Would it make sense ?? I would anyway check EACH glow plug for continuity, the multimeter will be enough ;-)
Regards, Bernie.
If someone here helped You fix or understand your issue, hit he thanks button, it's free !!
I believe that when COLD, the ECU gives order to glow plugs to get on, here maybe 3 are still good but the engine will start anyway.
On HOT: no need to pre-heat, engine starts.
Warm: still need pre-heat, but the ECU is giving a shorter ON order due to the higher engine temp compared to cold... ( THIS IS ABSOLUTELY A GUESS !! ) and the engine doesn't start immediately, but will after 2 or 3 pre-heats...
Would it make sense ?? I would anyway check EACH glow plug for continuity, the multimeter will be enough ;-)
Regards, Bernie.
If someone here helped You fix or understand your issue, hit he thanks button, it's free !!
Hi,
I can confirm that the new starter motor has fixed my starting issues. No more cranking when semi cold followed by puff of white smoke.
So happy after 2 years of suffering. The garage I got to fit said it would not make a difference. I like watching people it humble pie I serve them. Good luck if your suffering similar problems. Glad I did not change all the sensors, I have seen so many threads like this and I suspect a lot of them just need new starter motor. See my previous post for explanation (2 posts up), which you can test yourself with a decent set of jump leads.
Hope this helps someone.
Cheers
Jensen
I can confirm that the new starter motor has fixed my starting issues. No more cranking when semi cold followed by puff of white smoke.
So happy after 2 years of suffering. The garage I got to fit said it would not make a difference. I like watching people it humble pie I serve them. Good luck if your suffering similar problems. Glad I did not change all the sensors, I have seen so many threads like this and I suspect a lot of them just need new starter motor. See my previous post for explanation (2 posts up), which you can test yourself with a decent set of jump leads.
Hope this helps someone.
Cheers
Jensen
Last edited:
Hi,
glad you got it sorted. The starter motor is not an obvious cause. I can suggest two reasons for higher current when hot:
1/ Insulation breakdown, probably in the field (stator) winding.
2/ Mechanical binding caused thermal expansion and possibly distortion of thr rotoe or frame. My bet would be on this cause.
Pretty hard to prove 1/ as the windings have such a low resistance and are grounded. An inductance meter would show it though.
2/ could be checked by comparing the force to turn the shaft with it cold and hot (heat it in the oven when the domestic goddess isn't watching).
Robert G8RPI.
glad you got it sorted. The starter motor is not an obvious cause. I can suggest two reasons for higher current when hot:
1/ Insulation breakdown, probably in the field (stator) winding.
2/ Mechanical binding caused thermal expansion and possibly distortion of thr rotoe or frame. My bet would be on this cause.
Pretty hard to prove 1/ as the windings have such a low resistance and are grounded. An inductance meter would show it though.
2/ could be checked by comparing the force to turn the shaft with it cold and hot (heat it in the oven when the domestic goddess isn't watching).
Robert G8RPI.
I have also noticed that the new starter motor sounds much nicer. Now I can compare the old one did sound a little rough.
g8rpi - The issue only happened when the car had stood for approx 3-4 hours after being warm. I would start car cold mostly fine in the morning to do school run and get to work for 9am. Car would cool until lunch time at 1pm. Car really hard to start takes a lot of cranking and sometimes I would think it was not going to. It always would eventually with big cloud of white smoke (indicating that its not a fuel issue). Pop home and park but engine is warm by now. Get in car to go back to work for 2 pm, car still warm starts no trouble at all. Park at work 2 pm. 5pm leave work, car again hard to start as its been allowed to cool for >3 hours, white smoke. I thought that the hotter the SM the less current it would draw hence after a few cranks the draw would reduce enough to allow the ECU voltage to be high enough to operate correctly. Same goes for when car is really warm not cooled for long, plus in both cases the engine would have warmed or be warm enough to reduce the draw due to less friction. I just cannot explain the mainly easy starting when stone cold as I would expect this to require even more amps due to the extra friction, cold everything. I can only think that some sort of spike occurs at these temps that help it work. Glow plugs I suspect would have a different impact at different temps too.
Inspecting the old SM the is no obvious signs of damage. e.g. high wear, movement in the bearings.
I am sure that the reason is down to the ECU unable to operate due to voltage dropping too low when cranking on a faulty SM which weirdly is really bad at a certain temperature. Another hint to this was that on occasion when starting was bad I would get an excessive engine heat warning flash on the dash after it had been stood for >3 hours which is obviously incorrect. As you say not an obvious cause but I do know that all ECUs are very fussy about voltage and that it will crap out if voltage is too low. Same goes for PC CPU overclocking. It is sad though to see so many post like this on car forums with dealers who cannot solve it and have changed so many other expensive parts. Many describing the same symptoms as i had almost exactly.
Anyway again I hope this information helps someone avoid a lot of pain.
Cheers
g8rpi - The issue only happened when the car had stood for approx 3-4 hours after being warm. I would start car cold mostly fine in the morning to do school run and get to work for 9am. Car would cool until lunch time at 1pm. Car really hard to start takes a lot of cranking and sometimes I would think it was not going to. It always would eventually with big cloud of white smoke (indicating that its not a fuel issue). Pop home and park but engine is warm by now. Get in car to go back to work for 2 pm, car still warm starts no trouble at all. Park at work 2 pm. 5pm leave work, car again hard to start as its been allowed to cool for >3 hours, white smoke. I thought that the hotter the SM the less current it would draw hence after a few cranks the draw would reduce enough to allow the ECU voltage to be high enough to operate correctly. Same goes for when car is really warm not cooled for long, plus in both cases the engine would have warmed or be warm enough to reduce the draw due to less friction. I just cannot explain the mainly easy starting when stone cold as I would expect this to require even more amps due to the extra friction, cold everything. I can only think that some sort of spike occurs at these temps that help it work. Glow plugs I suspect would have a different impact at different temps too.
Inspecting the old SM the is no obvious signs of damage. e.g. high wear, movement in the bearings.
I am sure that the reason is down to the ECU unable to operate due to voltage dropping too low when cranking on a faulty SM which weirdly is really bad at a certain temperature. Another hint to this was that on occasion when starting was bad I would get an excessive engine heat warning flash on the dash after it had been stood for >3 hours which is obviously incorrect. As you say not an obvious cause but I do know that all ECUs are very fussy about voltage and that it will crap out if voltage is too low. Same goes for PC CPU overclocking. It is sad though to see so many post like this on car forums with dealers who cannot solve it and have changed so many other expensive parts. Many describing the same symptoms as i had almost exactly.
Anyway again I hope this information helps someone avoid a lot of pain.
Cheers
Last edited:
Hi,
I think you are totally correct that the starter was drawing excessive current and this was upsetting the ECU. It's not just the battery voltage getting low, the high current would cause the engine block to be at a higher voltage than normal in relation to the battery negative and other circuits connected electrically closer to the battery, due to resistance in the return path. This can upset sensors and actuators that are grounded at or closer to the block.
The reason for it not happening after a stop is probably heat soak. When the car is moving there is airflow that will cool it to some extent. When you stop the temperature of some components will rise. It might even be a differential temperature issue where if one end or side of the starter is at a different temperature it distorts causing the bearings to bind or short circuit to occur.
Robert G8RPI.
Bernievarian
Prominent member
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2017
- Messages
- 2,993
- Points
- 654
Hi,
glad you sorted it out ! And also very glad that you share your experience results !!
Regarding the sensors, voltage drops is one of the reasons why they tend to use digital ones when possible (PWM, Square waves) referenced to 5V provided by the ECU...
Regards, Bernie
glad you sorted it out ! And also very glad that you share your experience results !!
Regarding the sensors, voltage drops is one of the reasons why they tend to use digital ones when possible (PWM, Square waves) referenced to 5V provided by the ECU...
Regards, Bernie
Bernievarian
Prominent member
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2017
- Messages
- 2,993
- Points
- 654
Hi Robert,
digged a bit in eLearn: the only sensor for petrol engine management that relies on the engine earth is the oil pressure switch; ALL the others are referenced to 5V provided by the ECU. I guess it's the same for diesels, will confirm later...
Regards, Bernie
Edit: same for diesels engine management control, only oil pressure switch is earthed...
digged a bit in eLearn: the only sensor for petrol engine management that relies on the engine earth is the oil pressure switch; ALL the others are referenced to 5V provided by the ECU. I guess it's the same for diesels, will confirm later...
Regards, Bernie
Edit: same for diesels engine management control, only oil pressure switch is earthed...
Last edited:
Hi Robert,
I have seen your other posts on multiscan software. Can you tell me if I can use the free version to read the fault codes only on my 2007 Punto Grande 1.9 multijet? I have engine check light on but the car runs perfectly. Not sure where to start with this one. Was hoping the starter motor was related but no. I am looking to sell soon and buy a Subaru so don't want to buy the software to use once.
I like the heat soak idea and the heat differential causing an issue.
Many thanks
Jensen
I have seen your other posts on multiscan software. Can you tell me if I can use the free version to read the fault codes only on my 2007 Punto Grande 1.9 multijet? I have engine check light on but the car runs perfectly. Not sure where to start with this one. Was hoping the starter motor was related but no. I am looking to sell soon and buy a Subaru so don't want to buy the software to use once.
I like the heat soak idea and the heat differential causing an issue.
Many thanks
Jensen
Last edited:
Hi,
The GP is one of the cars wth minimal coverage under the unregistered version of Multiecuscan. If it is just the engine light, most of the generic readers will reset it.
If you come by Cambridge I'll do it with MES for you.
Robert G8RPI
The GP is one of the cars wth minimal coverage under the unregistered version of Multiecuscan. If it is just the engine light, most of the generic readers will reset it.
If you come by Cambridge I'll do it with MES for you.
Robert G8RPI
Hi Bernie,
Thanks for looking op the circuits. Isolated components do make it unlikey that common mode voltages will cause issues. That single oil pressure signal could cause issues (switch is closed during start) though I'd expect the ECU to have a properly protected input.
Robert G8RPI.
Thank for the offer Robert. I have ordered a hand held scanner. Might come back for some help once I know the error code.
Cheers
Bernievarian
Prominent member
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2017
- Messages
- 2,993
- Points
- 654
Hi Robert,
if well engineered, and I guess Fiat has some experience, such a sensor should be open circuit when pressure is missing; doing so the pressure warning light would come up in case of disconnection or wiring issue such as broken wire.
Internaly the switch signal (ground or floating) is probably connected as a pull-down to an Op-Amp whose output is driving the warning light. The switch does not prevent the engine to start...
That being said, it is very possible that they use a NC switch that opens the circuit when pressure rises, but anyway the detection in the ECU would be the same, just the other way around.
Maybe someone can check on a spare pressure switch if it's NC or NO ??
Regards, Bernie
if well engineered, and I guess Fiat has some experience, such a sensor should be open circuit when pressure is missing; doing so the pressure warning light would come up in case of disconnection or wiring issue such as broken wire.
Internaly the switch signal (ground or floating) is probably connected as a pull-down to an Op-Amp whose output is driving the warning light. The switch does not prevent the engine to start...
That being said, it is very possible that they use a NC switch that opens the circuit when pressure rises, but anyway the detection in the ECU would be the same, just the other way around.
Maybe someone can check on a spare pressure switch if it's NC or NO ??
Regards, Bernie
Last edited: