Hi,

I have just spent ages searching and reading every post I could find on the subject.

I have a starting problem that has gotten progressively worse. In previous years it was only a winter problem and now it is in the summer as well.

It always eventually starts and runs totally fine with no smoke. Sometimes the battery goes flat before it starts but once the battery has recharged it eventually starts. I have had a fresh battery and the alternator was replaced last year.

I have a diagnostics cable on order and will be checking that first.

I just wanted to run my plan passed you guys as I have not done mechanicing for 20+ years and am not familiar with modern(ish) vehicles..

If the diagnostics don't kick up an immediate cause I will be doing the following.

Checking the cam and crank sensors to make sure they are clean and the gaps set correctly.

Replacing the lift pump as this is nice and cheap. My thought is that although it appears to be working, it may not be generating quite enough flow?

If it still isn't working, I will replace the crank and cam sensors. (one at a time cheapest first).

Any further suggestions would be most welcome. Please be gentle with me

PS: it turns over fast enough and doesn't appear to be sluggish at all on the turnover. The problem happens even when the temp is over 15°C. So I don't suspect the starter motor at this point.

Buy an elm cable and check if you have any fault codes.

Engine won't start until pressure in the rail reaches about 250-300bar can't remember the exact figure.

If you have a worn injector or two the pressure leaks away to the return makes for hard starting. You can do a leak off test on the injectors to check for that. If its a worn injector usually when they are bad enough to cause non starting its sufficient to remove the return hose and eyeball the fuel coming out you'll find one that spewing far more diesel than the rest.

Its also possible that its low pressure on the low pressure side of the pump. e.g. blocked filter or strained. Or dirty can be dirty regulator. With an elm cable you can read the pressure.

Thanks corcai I have the cable hopefully arriving tomorrow.

I was hoping to avoid messing with the injectors... But if it comes to that I will get an expert on it. As soon as I have this fixed, going to get new clutch and timing belt, water pump etc etc...

This is the one I ordered off ebay. Sorry can't post URL's yet.

271871439299

Are the heater plugs working? Check for current at the plug cable terminals. If OK check ALL of them for continuity, no need to take them out for this test. Any indirect injection diesel will start eventually without these plugs working but it will take ages and ruin your starter motor in the process. More than one not working will make hard starting or even impossible. Even one not working will cause trouble..

Gromett said:

This is the one I ordered off ebay. Sorry can't post URL's yet.

271871439299

Click to expand...

You need multiecuscan or alfaobd for the 244 ducato any other software will give you junk data:
http://www.multiecuscan.net/Default.aspx
http://www.alfaobd.com/download.html

Re: messing with injectors. The return lines are just rubber hoses on barbed connectors theat plug into the top of the injector. All you need to do is withdraw the wire clip holding in the return connector and gently pull the connector out of the top of the injector - I say gently because you can snap off the hose barbs. if you're careless.

rolandbrindley said:

Are the heater plugs working? Check for current at the plug cable terminals. If OK check ALL of them for continuity, no need to take them out for this test. Any indirect injection diesel will start eventually without these plugs working but it will take ages and ruin your starter motor in the process. More than one not working will make hard starting or even impossible. Even one not working will cause trouble..

Click to expand...

No heater plugs in an 03 2.8JTD it has flame start. This has been replaced and tested. Thanks for the suggestion though.

corcai said:

You need multiecuscan or alfaobd for the 244 ducato any other software will give you junk data:
http://www.multiecuscan.net/Default.aspx
http://www.alfaobd.com/download.html

Re: messing with injectors. The return lines are just rubber hoses on barbed connectors theat plug into the top of the injector. All you need to do is withdraw the wire clip holding in the return connector and gently pull the connector out of the top of the injector - I say gently because you can snap off the hose barbs. if you're careless.

Click to expand...

I have downloaded the software. Just about to start installing windows on my laptop so I can use it

I honestly don't want to risk knackering up the barbs as you call them. I will wait to see what the software tells me.
Might come to that though. Thanks again.

fingers crossed the cable arrives tomorrow... finally make some progress.

Gromett said:

I have downloaded the software. Just about to start installing windows on my laptop so I can use it

I honestly don't want to risk knackering up the barbs as you call them. I will wait to see what the software tells me.
Might come to that though. Thanks again.

fingers crossed the cable arrives tomorrow... finally make some progress.

Click to expand...

If you're on linux or mac then I've had multiecuscan running in virtualbox before it worked fine. Saves faffing about with dual booting.

corcai said:

If you're on linux or mac then I've had multiecuscan running in virtualbox before it worked fine. Saves faffing about with dual booting.

Click to expand...

Whooohooo

That was going to be my first test (virtualbox) failing that I was aiming for a dual boot situation.

100% linux for many years here. Just spent about 4 hours going through boxes to find a windows install Disk to get the code so I could download an ISO to put on a USB stick... I hope you are correct about virtualbox, that will save me an hour of my life I won't get back

There are prebuilt windows 7 virtualbox machines floating around on the torrent sites too

corcai said:

There are prebuilt windows 7 virtualbox machines floating around on the torrent sites too

Click to expand...

Filled with malware no doubt...

Sorry but I run a network security company, got to be careful what I install.

Got the laptop all configured with vbox and have USB on passthrough so the software will see the USB port natively.. Fingers crossed.

Hi,
The year of your van is right on the change to the HDI injection system.
You mentioned the cold start is a flame start system which is fitted to the older injection system models.
These 2.8 engines are normally very reliable and start and run well.
My experience of these is they will jump one tooth on the cam belt but still run but not start well and need a lot of cranking.
The timing belt is very long and will expand over time making the belt jump one or two teeth on the injection jump.
you can check this by removing the timing covers turn the engine over and check all the timing marks and also see if the belt has excessive play.

cotswoldtony said:

Hi,
The year of your van is right on the change to the HDI injection system.
You mentioned the cold start is a flame start system which is fitted to the older injection system models.
These 2.8 engines are normally very reliable and start and run well.
My experience of these is they will jump one tooth on the cam belt but still run but not start well and need a lot of cranking.
The timing belt is very long and will expand over time making the belt jump one or two teeth on the injection jump.
you can check this by removing the timing covers turn the engine over and check all the timing marks and also see if the belt has excessive play.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that, A friend of mine suggested the timing belt but I was sceptical because I believed the injector timing was electronic. My lack of understanding is hindering my diagnostics

I will schedule a timing belt change. Thanks for the pointer.

cotswoldtony said:

you can check this by removing the timing covers turn the engine over and check all the timing marks and also see if the belt has excessive play.

Click to expand...

One quick question. I am a fairly intelligent person but have never done timing before. Do you think this is a job that I can self learn or is it something that needs to be taught/shown by someone who knows what they are doing?

Thanks

Don't worry, I found my answer.
https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/218539-2-8-jtd-timing-belt-replacement.html

I better leave this to an expert.

Just a quick update to let everyone know what the fault was.

After checking everything out we finally resorted to fighting with windows to get the diagnostics software working.

We figured out how to monitor the fuel pressure and set it to graph while we cranked the engine.

98bar.. Way too low. We then did the injector test and one of them was peeing diesel out as fast as the lift pump could deliver it. 2 of the injector had a very slight leakage and one is totally fine.

We then graphed the fuel pressure and cranked her for 30+ seconds until she started. The pressure slowly rose until it reached 140 engine coughed and the pressure fell back down to 100. This was about the 25 second mark. at 32 seconds of cranking the pressure was up to 150 and she started up.

New injector on order..

Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions, much appreciated. I now know more about flipping diesel engines than I wanted to. Happy to get back to computers

PS: europarts have a large sale on at the moment.

The injector should have been 209.99 with the discount code it came down to £138..

There is a refundable surcharge of £71.99 which I believe you get back when you return your old injector.

Gromett said:

No heater plugs in an 03 2.8JTD it has flame start. This has been replaced and tested. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Click to expand...

I have never heard of this before. My van is a2003 JTD. How can I tell whether it's a flame start or glow plug please?

Would the VIN number be instrumental in deciding this?