Technical Uprate Brakes

merovingian · Jan 31, 2016

I have a Hymer motor home on a 2.8jtd 2004 with disks all round. She has been upgraded to 160 hp and runs so much better. I had the brake fluid changed last year and all is well. However, although the brakes are ok I was wondering if I could do something to improve their efficiency, compared to my Merc car you really have to stand on them if you want to stop quickly. In the standard Van form i'm sure they are quite adequate but the heavier camper is a little different!

Suggestions please?

corcai · Jan 31, 2016

Is it on 15 inch wheels they had smaller brakes.

What torque did they map it to the standard ducato clutch is unlikely to take it for long.

digger58 · Jan 31, 2016

What do you expect, it's not a car and won't handle or drive like one, It's a commercial vehicle!!!!!!!! I just can't believe the number of people who expect their 3 ton+ camper to drive and handle like a car , IT WON'T and that is that. It is heavier, wider, longer AND the CoG is higher. Get to know it's limits and you will find it handles perfectly for it's size. You need to adjust your driving rather than messing with a system that has been designed to cope with the criteria it may encounter.

merovingian · Jan 31, 2016

Dear me! Don't you think I already know all this bitches!
If someone suggested, softer pads or bigger servo, now that might be helpful, maybe someone with something between the ears might answer

adlarplant · Jan 31, 2016

i understand what your after unfortunately i have no quick suggestions just had a very quick look through a generic parts list there are 2 different sizes available 280 and 300 mm i dont think it is a simple change over as the pcd differs as well so youd have to change hubs etc as well you may try a softer pad ive switched from genuine to trw on my x250 so far so good peddle feels more progressive done 120000kms so time will tell on longevity i sugeest going to a wrecckers with a tape mesure and see whats out there if you go that way take the whole system front and rear and see how it goes Cheeers Adam

merovingian · Jan 31, 2016

adlarplant said:
i understand what your after unfortunately i have no quick suggestions just had a very quick look through a generic parts list there are 2 different sizes available 280 and 300 mm i dont think it is a simple change over as the pcd differs as well so youd have to change hubs etc as well you may try a softer pad ive switched from genuine to trw on my x250 so far so good peddle feels more progressive done 120000kms so time will tell on longevity i sugeest going to a wrecckers with a tape mesure and see whats out there if you go that way take the whole system front and rear and see how it goes Cheeers Adam

Finally a human

I will have a look for the softer pads, greater progression would be a big plus, I don't know of this make TRW Adam but will google it, I tend to get my parts from Germany as It's usually cheaper and TUV tested, if you could send me a link to the source that would be very kind, once again, many thanks, Paul

corcai · Jan 31, 2016

I asked about the wheels as they have completely different hubs discs calipers. If you're on 15s you could probably fit a larger twin pot caliper. I mentioned the torque because the ducato clutch is only good for about 320Nm and the only person I know with 160hp was a polish mechanic and he was changing his clutch every 25000km he had it down to 90mins a change.

digger58 · Jan 31, 2016

merovingian said:
Dear me! Don't you think I already know all this bitches!
If someone suggested, softer pads or bigger servo, now that might be helpful, maybe someone with something between the ears might answer

Plenty between the ears!!! Why do you expect a van to drive like a car and stop like one? (You said that, not me) They are designed for different purposes and react differently, get over it and learn to drive a commercial vehicle properly. If you had something between the ears you would know this

errolmorris · Feb 1, 2016

Not sure if this is helpful, but when were the rotors last machined? The rotors can become glazed along with the disc pads.
I would try rubbing the disc pads with sandpaper to remove any possible glazing and at the same time you could rub the rotors over with some fine wet and dry paper.
If the rotors have a nice mirror type surface and feel like glass, then they are glazed.
Just because we own commercial vehicles doesn't mean that the brakes shouldn't work as efficiently as any other vehicle as some bed-wetters would want you to believe. Their rationale defies logic.

digger58 · Feb 1, 2016

Just because we own commercial vehicles doesn't mean that the brakes shouldn't work as efficiently as any other vehicle as some bed-wetters would want you to believe. Their rationale defies logic.

What utter twaddle! When you have grasped Newtons laws and momentum you may come to realise that! Most campers are based on a commercial chassis for a very good reason, Think about mass and velocity, even the tyre compounds are different when compared to car tyres, The brakes are of course as efficient as any others but when you are dealing with maybe X2 or 3 the weight then things change. handling is different and braking distances increase. I have no doubt Fiat brakes are every bit as efficient as Mercedes at any stage but compare like with like.

merovingian · Feb 2, 2016

digger58 said:
Just because we own commercial vehicles doesn't mean that the brakes shouldn't work as efficiently as any other vehicle as some bed-wetters would want you to believe. Their rationale defies logic.

What utter twaddle! When you have grasped Newtons laws and momentum you may come to realise that! Most campers are based on a commercial chassis for a very good reason, Think about mass and velocity, even the tyre compounds are different when compared to car tyres, The brakes are of course as efficient as any others but when you are dealing with maybe X2 or 3 the weight then things change. handling is different and braking distances increase. I have no doubt Fiat brakes are every bit as efficient as Mercedes at any stage but compare like with like.

Seems clear to me that nobody is allowed to disagree or see things a little differently to you Digger, without being abused! I have driven all sorts of vehicles during my 22 years Army career including APC's, being told I should learn to drive a commercial vehicle by a complete stranger is pissing me off, try to be a little nicer lad it's not your problem is it

merovingian · Feb 2, 2016

errolmorris said:
Not sure if this is helpful, but when were the rotors last machined? The rotors can become glazed along with the disc pads.
I would try rubbing the disc pads with sandpaper to remove any possible glazing and at the same time you could rub the rotors over with some fine wet and dry paper.
If the rotors have a nice mirror type surface and feel like glass, then they are glazed.
Just because we own commercial vehicles doesn't mean that the brakes shouldn't work as efficiently as any other vehicle as some bed-wetters would want you to believe. Their rationale defies logic.

I am going to invest in new Disks and Pads from ATE I have found at a good price. The Hymer is 11 years old now and it's about time, it sat for many years unused, rust had formed around the edges and they appear scratched and glazed as a result, this can only improve things

Thanks for your advice

digger58 · Feb 2, 2016

Seems clear to me that nobody is allowed to disagree or see things a little differently to you Digger, without being abused! I have driven all sorts of vehicles during my 22 years Army career including APC's, being told I should learn to drive a commercial vehicle by a complete stranger is pissing me off, try to be a little nicer lad it's not your problem is it

No problem with people disagreeing when they know what they're on about! I presume a City and Guilds in Forensic Collision Investigation and 9 years investigation fatal and life changing accidents gives me no credence at all? I also hold artic ,rigid and bus licences and drove professionally, the make up of a commercial vehicle and its handling are totally different to passenger cars, they do not and will not handle like a car does and that is that, If a braking system is not up to scratch it is usually due to wear and laack of maintenance rather than design, the vehicle manufacturers spend a lot of time and money in getting it right, keeping a braking system maintained is of the utmost importance but trying to improve on a design is another thing altogether! I have no doubt that if maintained properly the system is fine as it was designed. So don't be pissed off, just realise that Fiat and Mercedes and other manufactures have much larger resources than you and me, they don't knowingly put vehicles on the market with defective braking systems. I'm sure you'll agree that an APC will and does not handle like a camper nor a car. Nothing strange about that. My own camper is going to get new pads and shoes this season, I will also fit new seals and any other thing it needs on inspection, the handbrake is not great so I will sort that, None of these will be sorted by me trying to redesign the system, just a good strip and clean and renew any worn parts. So relax and enjoy your camper and hope you have a good and safe year out and about

__________________

merovingian · Feb 2, 2016

digger58 said:
Seems clear to me that nobody is allowed to disagree or see things a little differently to you Digger, without being abused! I have driven all sorts of vehicles during my 22 years Army career including APC's, being told I should learn to drive a commercial vehicle by a complete stranger is pissing me off, try to be a little nicer lad it's not your problem is it

No problem with people disagreeing when they know what they're on about! I presume a City and Guilds in Forensic Collision Investigation and 9 years investigation fatal and life changing accidents gives me no credence at all? I also hold artic ,rigid and bus licences and drove professionally, the make up of a commercial vehicle and its handling are totally different to passenger cars, they do not and will not handle like a car does and that is that, If a braking system is not up to scratch it is usually due to wear and laack of maintenance rather than design, the vehicle manufacturers spend a lot of time and money in getting it right, keeping a braking system maintained is of the utmost importance but trying to improve on a design is another thing altogether! I have no doubt that if maintained properly the system is fine as it was designed. So don't be pissed off, just realise that Fiat and Mercedes and other manufactures have much larger resources than you and me, they don't knowingly put vehicles on the market with defective braking systems. I'm sure you'll agree that an APC will and does not handle like a camper nor a car. Nothing strange about that. My own camper is going to get new pads and shoes this season, I will also fit new seals and any other thing it needs on inspection, the handbrake is not great so I will sort that, None of these will be sorted by me trying to redesign the system, just a good strip and clean and renew any worn parts. So relax and enjoy your camper and hope you have a good and safe year out and about
__________________

Wow,now that's far nicer and informative! Many thanks Digger

al18 · Feb 3, 2016

Waww, take a breath digger, its replies like yours that put people off using friendly forums. If you already know everything and are offended by all who don't then why go online?
As for handling etc, he never asked for or im sure imagined his camper to act like a car but simply asked for advice on improving the break efficiency. Which as he stated the vehicle had been modified to produce more power would surely be a sensible option.

Different pads is an option worth looking at, braided flexi hoses could help with the pedal feel and its possible to have the discs machined(grooved/slotted/drilled),company's do them to the standard discs. Il look for a link for you mate, good luck , Al

digger58 · Feb 3, 2016

Relax, I certainly don't know everything and never claimed to! WTF is BREAK efficiency, never heard of it?

errolmorris · Feb 3, 2016

digger58 said:
Relax, I certainly don't know everything and never claimed to! WTF is BREAK efficiency, never heard of it?

It is BRAKE efficiency and is measured with a decelerometer.

digger58 · Feb 3, 2016

Just wondering why people refer to it as BREAK quite a lot!

errolmorris · Feb 3, 2016

digger58 said:
Just wondering why people refer to it as BREAK quite a lot!

Sorry, I thought you had misspelled it. I suppose your question hasn't been answered then.
Now you've got me wondering. I don't believe I know of any device for measuring a break other than some rule of thumb, so my decelerometer is now of no use. Bugger!

al18 · Feb 3, 2016

Dang, yip a simple break and brake mix up, luckily theres always some pedantic sad act to pick up on those little errors.
Id measure breaks with a watch and improve the efficiency of them by having the kettle preboiled and a rollup ready to go.

Couldn't find a link for the original poster, any good machine shop local to you could cnc the rotors and there are kits for the braided hoses.

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