Hello folks, wondering if someone could help out a couple we have here in the U.S. from Germany with there motorhome. We are in the process of aquiring a diagnostic interface cable to work with the multiecuscan software our customer has downloaded. I believe the correct interface is the kkl cable??? If someone could verify that it would be appreciated, or maybe even a link to the correct one for purchase? In the meantime one of out techs has been looking at some basics , it cranks but does not start, he said the high pressure pump is getting fuel supply from the low pressure pump but not outputting high pressure. It runs of starting fluid sprayed into the intake. There looks to be two electrical connectors on the high pressure pump, on top there is some sort of 2 wire solenoid ?? and on the back I think is a three wire solenoid , was wondering what the function of these two solenoids are. We have no service manuals or diagnostic equippment at this point, the poor folks are stuck living in our parking lot for now. Sorry bout the longwinded post, any advice will be appreciated.

Any vag com kkl cable will do.

Injector leak off test is your next step, you'll most likely find a bad injector or two.

Commonrails need very good diesel to prevent wear you have to be careful where you fill up in the usa that could be their problem, my sister has an issue getting the correct spec for her honda in california only a fraction of the filling stations sell the high cetane, ultra low sulphur diesel required.

And don't put easy start in it, its a high compression diesel and the shock from easy start can crush main bearing, bend conrod etc.

If it border line starting then it will start on a pull no problem and may start tiwh the extra voltage from a jumpstart.

We tried the bleed off test just while cranking,(because it does'nt start as previouslly stated) we got nothing . We took the high pressure line to the rail off and with key on the low pressure pump was pushing fuel thru the high pressure pump and rail supply line. Im leaning more and more toward a high pressure pump failure, but with two solenoids on the high pressure pump they might be commanding the high pressure pump to not make pressure, we should have a compatibale interface for the software soon(hopefully) so we can look at some sensor readings and read any codes in the controller. Im still stuck on these solenoids on the high pressure pump and what there functions are, the two wire solenoid on top of the pump looks like it has been removed at some point because it appears someone reinstalled it with silicone gasket maker.

Hi,

The stop solenoid may be stuck shut, preventing fuel from flowing through the HP pump. Fairly common problem.
Is the code light going out on the dash?

Alan

circ1977 said:

We tried the bleed off test just while cranking,(because it does'nt start as previouslly stated) we got nothing . We took the high pressure line to the rail off and with key on the low pressure pump was pushing fuel thru the high pressure pump and rail supply line. Im leaning more and more toward a high pressure pump failure, but with two solenoids on the high pressure pump they might be commanding the high pressure pump to not make pressure, we should have a compatibale interface for the software soon(hopefully) so we can look at some sensor readings and read any codes in the controller. Im still stuck on these solenoids on the high pressure pump and what there functions are, the two wire solenoid on top of the pump looks like it has been removed at some point because it appears someone reinstalled it with silicone gasket maker.

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The ecu won't fire the injectors until the pressure in the rail is something like 280 bar, so you can't do a leakoff test on cranking. You need to start it with a tow or a jump and then do the leakoff test.

Are you a mechanic? Will you be charging the couple for your time? because you obviously don't know anything about common rail. The couple in question would be better going to a vw/mercedes dealer or a garage familiar with the dodge sprinter.

Parts are expensive enough here I imagine they are much more expensive in the states. You've already come to the conculsuion the high pressure pump is at fault based on zero knowledge of the system. Fooling around swapping the wrong parts would be doing them a disservice.

If you're not going to be charging them for fiddling with it then this is where you should be reading all of:
http://ftp.psyborg.rpg.pl/hdi/Bosch Hdi Edc15c2 - Injection System - 153 Pp - English.doc

and look at the other documents there too:
http://ftp.psyborg.rpg.pl/hdi/

The top solenoid is the 3rd piston deactivation solenoid that deactivate the third piston when fule temp is over 106 celcius, piston by default is engaged its highly unlikely to be the source of the starting problem but you can rule it out by disconnecting it.

The other 'solenoid' is the pressure regulator which is pwm modulated. Have you got an oscilloscope.


The other solenoid is the

a1ant said:

The stop solenoid may be stuck shut, preventing fuel from flowing through the HP pump. Fairly common problem.

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There is no 'stop solenoid' nuff said.

a1ant said:

Hi,
Is the code light going out on the dash?

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Good point - I thought the op said they started it with starting fluid but on rereading it says it 'runs on starting fluid'

We havent charged this couple a dime yet and Fiat is actually stepping in to help these folks out. So we will see what they come up with, we just started selling fiats here in the u.s. last year and all we have are 2 passenger car models so far. We did sell sprinters in the past and still have them come in for service. Im used to common rail with cummins , but the euro set up is alot different. You are correct , I stated this vehicle will not run on it's own fuel system, it will run on oil srayed into it, we wanted to rule out base engine failures. We verified the low pressure pump is supplying the high pressure pump, and checked for any obvious high side fuel leaks, we checked for leak off at the injectors during cranking just to see if there was anything horribley obvious there. I've got a little more info on the high pressure pump with the third piston deactavator and the three wire solenoid is obvioslly has to be the fuel control actuator. We'll probally be checking the power and grounds to that next . Oh i did disconnect the third piston deactivator to no avail.

circ1977 said:

We havent charged this couple a dime yet and Fiat is actually stepping in to help these folks out. So we will see what they come up with, we just started selling fiats here in the u.s. last year and all we have are 2 passenger car models so far. We did sell sprinters in the past and still have them come in for service. Im used to common rail with cummins , but the euro set up is alot different. You are correct , I stated this vehicle will not run on it's own fuel system, it will run on oil srayed into it, we wanted to rule out base engine failures. We verified the low pressure pump is supplying the high pressure pump, and checked for any obvious high side fuel leaks, we checked for leak off at the injectors during cranking just to see if there was anything horribley obvious there. I've got a little more info on the high pressure pump with the third piston deactavator and the three wire solenoid is obvioslly has to be the fuel control actuator. We'll probally be checking the power and grounds to that next . Oh i did disconnect the third piston deactivator to no avail.

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If you're dealing with sprinters and starting to sell the fiats then its time well spend learning then.

The jtd system is functionally the same as the early sprinter cdi - ecu is almost identical whatever data you have on the functioning of the injection system on the sprinters should apply.

When the kkl lead arrives you'll know the score, if its just low rail pressure then tow it to start it and do a leakoff test.

Might be worth checking that the lift pump is generating sufficient pressure, should be able to make about 3bar.

You might also need an elm modified cable and the three patch leads depending in what mes shouts for when you plug it in and run which ever test you want it tells you if you use the wrong lead and tells you what to use eg plug in elm with red adaptor

Got mine from this chap
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=261260058258



Does the code light (yellow key / padlock symbol) go out after a few seconds once you turn the key to MAR ? If not check the engine bay ground points between the battery, chassis and engine/ gear box.

Also any grounds on or from the ecu

a jumper cable from negative on the battery to the chassis and another to the block is a simple check.

Sometimes the ground cable perishes internally it will supply twelve volts but not under load .....

The ecu relies on voltage based signals and can crap itself if it doesn't see what it expects to see especially with the code imobiliser

Fuse 15 in the dash isn't blown is it?

Here's a update on the no start , we recieved and examiner scan tool from fiat and found 80 bar on the fuel rail pressure sensor while cranking or just key on(did not change). So to eliminate the rail sensor as a culprit I got some resistors and found some to jump the 5 volt supply and the return wires and it read 1250 bar and tried cranking it but it still did not start.In the meantime the customer ordered a bunch of parts to throw at it without my knoweledge. I told him we were suspecting a high pressure pump so he just went and ordered one along with a rail pressure sensor , and some other crap. I took off the high pressure to rail line and found it was rusted up inside, the system was contaminated with water at some point unfortunately, I informed him all the high pressure metal components really should be replaced at this point.I removed the high pressure pump and it was damn near locked up, I think something internally broke inside(which is what I was suspecting due to the fact the low pressure pump was pushing fuel right thru to the high pressure line at back of the pump). The new pump did not come with a new gear on it, which was extremely hard to get off the old one, it took a gear splitter and a shop press to pull it apart.At this point the customer just wants it to run long enough to pull it onto the boat to ship back home he will trailer it the rest of the way. Im going to drain the the fuel and clean out the tank and replace his fuel filter/seperator and hopefully this thing will fire over for him (I learned most boat captains will not take a vehicle aboard that will not run). He said he will have the rest of the components replaced when he gets back to Germany. I have to say the fiat factory scan tool sucks , and the e-learn website that I was given access to is very vague in comparison to what were used to here in the states. I was informed fiat in Europe will be switching over to the same diagnostic software that we have been using here for the last 6 years for Chryslers soon.Well at any rate thanks to those of you who contributed to my thread here , appreciate it, and so do the vacationers stuck here, we will be sending them back home soon.

dirty fuel is the fault of many problems glad to see u found the problem for the small extra cost i always replace the fuel filter at every service to try and negate this sort of problem cheers adam

adlarplant said:

dirty fuel is the fault of many problems glad to see u found the problem for the small extra cost i always replace the fuel filter at every service to try and negate this sort of problem cheers adam

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You are right, there is a large study that concluded resuspension of particles in the filter due to vibration and movement, was the main issue in reduced injector life outside the lab. Also I looked for an aftermarket filter that would have better water spperation but as the pump is in the tank the filter is on the pressure side and subjected to several bar of pressure and almost all of the decent filters are designed for vacuumside.

Hi guys, Im new to the site and would like to say hello and thanks for the add, I myself have got a 1999 2.8 jtd motorhome, on taking it out today I found the engine rev range want there like normal.... It was laboured to say the least.. Seems like fuel problems to me... Dirty fuel etc, has any one got any advice to eliminate the obvious... Thanks folks.. Nev

Hi,
firtly do a SEARCH of the ducato section,
mainly drain off condensate from the fuel filter,
then check air filter / housing,

after that -assuming it's starting well enough,
look for cracked / perished hoses drawing air/ leaking fuel,

Charlie

Hi all, Can you help me out with this please ?

I have a Hymer Fiat ducato 2.3 55 plate and has been perfect for 4 years . Then I had a flat battery and the garage tried to jump start it with no avail ! So I fitted a brand new battery . Now it just turns over , And the immobiliser key code is not lighting up at all ..


Thanks paul..

Andy Monty said:

You might also need an elm modified cable and the three patch leads depending in what mes shouts for when you plug it in and run which ever test you want it tells you if you use the wrong lead and tells you what to use eg plug in elm with red adaptor





Does the code light (yellow key / padlock symbol) go out after a few seconds once you turn the key to MAR ? If not check the engine bay ground points between the battery, chassis and engine/ gear box.

Also any grounds on or from the ecu

a jumper cable from negative on the battery to the chassis and another to the block is a simple check.

Sometimes the ground cable perishes internally it will supply twelve volts but not under load .....

The ecu relies on voltage based signals and can crap itself if it doesn't see what it expects to see especially with the code imobiliser

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Don't bother about checking the fuel filter just change it ...the HP pumps on common rail engines have working clearances in the microns, any dirt or contaminated will feck it for sure
I work in the trade and the number of people who spend thousands on buying a motor & then can't be bothered to replace a £10 filter.....does my head in

Olympus said:

I work in the trade and the number of people who spend thousands on buying a motor & then can't be bothered to replace a £10 filter.....does my head in

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Don't forget the number of people who reuse the filthy diesel from the bowl 'saving' themselves £0.30 on diesel and knocking tens of thousands off the life of their pump and injectors. :bang: