My 2002 Ducato 1.9TD camper has an occasional problem with stalling shortly after starting for the first time in the day. Last year during a weeks holiday it happened on two successive days then was fine for the rest of the week. Each time it happened the van just lost power and as soon as I declutched the engine stopped. After coming to a standstill I restarted it and it was fine for the rest of the day.

Yesterday I started it and left it running on the drive for a few minutes and it did the same, just stopped. Several times I restarted and it immediately died. I eventually managed to get it running by keeping a bit of throttle on whilst starting. I then took it out for a 45-minute run and it was fine.

I'm baffled what might be causing this. Although ten years old the van has done less than 9,000 miles. In spite of the low mileage it has service stamps for every year and has even had the cambelt changed at the correct time interval. The engine is mechanically, rather than electronically, fuel-injected. It has a third-party Cobra alarm fitted which is hooked into the immobiliser and I did wonder if there might be a problem with that but it doesn't seem to square with the fact that once it gets over the initial 'hiccup' it runs fine.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has come across this kind of problem before.

Hello , does it happen with a few ( 4/5) minutes of starting ??, then restart instantly
it may be an air-lock ( bubble) in perishing fuel lines,
mine does similar - but within 30 seconds running,
then it's fine all day,
Charlie

Hi Charlie, thanks for responding. Yes, 4 - 5 minutes would be about right. That's an interesting idea. The van's still under warranty from the dealer. I told them about it last year when it first happened but they said they couldn't find anything. I've got to take it back again to get a problem with the water heater fixed so I'll mention that to them and insist they have a closer look. Have you definitely traced yours to an air leak and if so have you got it fixed?

Re: Update

This week I had a rather disturbing incident on the A1. I'd just overtaken 3 HGVs and fortunately got back to the L H lane when it cut out again. I had just enough momentum to get into a slip road. When I tried to restart it kept firing then dying. After about four attempts it kept running and I completed my journey. It also ran 40 minutes back home without further problems.

This seems to cast doubt on the air bubble theory as it had been running fine for 35 minutes before this happened. The dealer has suggested disabling the factory immobiliser and I'd be prepared to go with that if it was likely to cure the problem but I'm not convinced that it's the culprit. So, some questions:-

If the factory immobiliser had an intermittent fault could it operate the fuel cut-off once the engine is running? I've always assumed that once the code has been read and the engine started the immobiliser has no further influence.

The dealer thinks the Cobra alarm/immobiliser is separate from the factory one. Does anyone know if this is correct? Has anyone ever heard of a Cobra immobiliser causing problems?

I'd be really grateful for any thoughts on this because this is a potentially dangerous fault which is really starting to worry me.

I had a 1998 2.5td (also with mechanical fuel pump) so probably the same chassis as yours. The factory immobiliser had already been bypassed and it also had a aftermarket Cobra alarm/immobiliser fitted.

To complete the hat-trick it also had a habit of cutting out in awkward situations (however at the same time all ignition controlled functions such as indicators were also lost)

After much anguish (& initially blaming ignition switch and the Cobra system!) I traced the fault to a poor contact in the large 4-way block connecter under the dashboard on the offside wheel arch. This intermittently cut off the ignition supply (I realised afterwards that the extra load of the indicators would sometimes trigger the fault) thus cutting off the power to the fuel cut-off solenoid in the pump.

These pre-ECU vans are so basic it is likely to be something fairly simple but it can be a black art to track down. Fixing the above fault took 5 minutes but finding it took about 10 hours.

Your problem certainly sounds as if the 12v supply to the fuel cut-off solenoid is being interrupted; I suppose if all else fails, as an experiment, you could disable the factory immobiliser and feed the solenoid directly from the ignition switch.

Crossingkeeper said:

I suppose if all else fails, as an experiment, you could disable the factory immobiliser and feed the solenoid directly from the ignition switch.

Click to expand...

I think that is what the dealer is proposing. He says the factory immobiliser is a bit of a waste of time as it is so easy to bypass. The 3-pin connector to the solenoid is easily accessible with the bonnet up. I suppose doing that would at least eliminate it as a suspect but I'd only consider it if it didn't compromise the Cobra immobiliser, otherwise it would impact my insurance premium.

I've sent an enquiry to Cobra but am unlikely to get an answer back before Monday at the earliest.

fenman said:

The 3-pin connector to the solenoid is easily accessible with the bonnet up.

Click to expand...

There is a bit more to it than just connecting to this: have a look at Aark's post in the thread a little lower down the page:

Immobiliser problem on Ducato motorhome

On my van the Cobra system was independent to the factory immobilizer (but may well have been fitted as a replacement for this)

I see what you mean. There is a small electronic unit interposed between the loom and solenoid which must be removed from the solenoid before the IGN feed is connected.

I'll be doing the same journey again today. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

I thought I'd just update on this topic. I took the van back to the dealer yesterday. The van cut out again about 100 yards before I reached his garage. It had been running fine for over an hour. While coasting with the engine over-running I tried switching the ignition off and on again but that didn't revive it. After I stopped it restarted immediately as on the previous occasions.

I said I'd be happy for him to bypass the Fiat immobiliser but he then said the fault didn't sound like an immobiliser problem so would just check it over for wiring problems. Actually I think he didn't want to work on the immobiliser as he said it was a long job, involving breaking a circuit board out of potting resin (and I happen to know they all go home at 2pm on Fridays ).

Anyway he rang later on to say they'd found a couple of possible culprits. One was a loose pin in a multi-block connector feeding the pump solenoid so seemed plausible. He says he's soldered the wires directly so I hope the loom never needs separating there . It'll be interesting to see if that's cured the problem.

It hasn't!

Back to the drawing-board.

I have found this will work if you leave the key off for 4-5 secs. If you try to restart immediately after the engine dies, the ecu hasn't had time to reset, or clear the fault. Only thing is, doing 80k, approaching a corner, you don't have time to think about these things.

That wouldn't work for me. Ours is a mechanically-injected engine - no ECU (apart from the key code unit)!

It does seem, though, that the engine needs to stop completely before it will re-start. Next time if I can think quickly enough, and conditions allow, I plan to dip the clutch, let the engine stop, then turn the ignition off and on and re-engage the clutch to see if that will re-start it.

The saga continues.......

Sorry to hear the problem hasn't been solved, it makes driving the van so fraught that you can't enjoy it (and I only suffered the problem for a couple of months before I found the cause)

If the fault is so random it's got to be electrical rather than fuelling especially as the mechanical fuelling system on those vans is so bombproof.

When the engine cuts out, quickly check if you still have all the other ignition controlled functions such as indicators or wipers. If yes then it's likely to be the pump solenoid cutting off the fuel and this is probably down to the immobiliser which is a well-known problem on this model. (if no, see my previous post!)

If I were you I'd butcher the pump (or get someone to do it) as per the advice on this forum and temporarily feed the solenoid via a switched fused supply straight from the battery. If this solves the problem you can then determine whether it is down to the ignition switch or the immobiliser.

I know you said you were worried about the insurance implications but you can always hide the switch and to be brutally honest a 10 year old van is not likely to be top of the hit list for resale or for joyriding

Hi Crossingkeeper thanks for the reply. I know the ignition functions are ok as I used the indicators while coasting to a halt today, and also the alternator and oil lights come on.

I think you may be on the right lines and bypassing the immobiliser should be the next step. This ties in with a thought that crossed my mind after today's episode. In every case so far it has not been possible to restart the engine by dropping the clutch while coasting, even after turning the key off and back on. It seems to need the starter to be operated (I haven't tried that while coasting - yet). Maybe there's some feature of the KCU (Key Code Unit) that requires the key to be turned to position II to enable the solenoid.

My worry about the insurance implications is that I get a discount for the Cobra alarm/immobiliser and assuming this operates by hooking into the van immobiliser I would have to inform the insurance company if it were bypassed, even though the alarm part would still work, and lose my discount. Failure to do that could invalidate the insurance and wouldn't be worth the risk.

Hi. Does it cut out dead or lose power and die?

It cuts dead, no preliminary warning, stuttering or power loss. Just as if I'd turned the key to '0'.

Hi, thanks for the contribution. As I understand it part of the immobiliser electronics is integrated with the fuel cut-off solenoid and is sealed within a potting compound which means it has to be completely destroyed to gain access to the solenoid power feeds. The connection to the key code unit is via a 3-pin in-line connector. I'm guessing that the three conductors are 12V, Ground and a coded signal from the KCU. This means the only way to bypass the immobiliser is to hack away the integrated electronics and install a direct feed to the solenoid from the ignition circuit.

From the nature of the fault I think a faulty lift pump or blockage in the fuel line can be ruled out. It definitely feels like the fuel is abruptly cut off which points to an immobiliser fault. As I mentioned earlier the fact that it can't be restarted by any other means than with the starter reinforces the suspicion that the immobiliser is the culprit.

The van is also fitted with a Cobra Thatcham Category 1 alam/immobiliser which was almost certainly installed when the vehicle was new which means it, and the OEM immobiliser, is 11 years old and electronic circuits of that age may well start to become unreliable. I don't know how the Cobra immobiliser is integrated with the OEM one and therefore whether bypassing the OEM one will also disable the Cobra. I have contacted Cobra and they claim that once the relay in their unit is activated and latched it's virtually impossible for it to release while the engine is running. Conversely it seems that the OEM immobiliser has a reputation for unreliability so that would be my prime suspect. However the Cobra has also aroused my suspicions as on a number of occasions it seems to have disarmed itself when left armed for a week or two and only today I heard the siren sound for a couple of seconds although I found afterwards it was still armed.

I will be speaking to the dealer tomorrow and I expect him to suggest bypassing the OEM immobiliser. I'm ok with that providing we can agree what he will do if that doesn't fix the fault. In some ways I would rather the suspect components were replaced but I'm pretty certain he won't wear that due to cost. If we go for the bypass I'll probably ask for a concealed key-operated switch to be wired into the solenoid feed.

Just a quick update. The dealer is attempting to wash his hands of the problem on the basis that too long a period has elapsed since the sale (nothwithstanding I reported it for the first time within 4 weeks) and that he can't replicate it. It seems the only way to convince him is to let him have it and use it for an extended period. So far it's covered about 2,250 miles and has happened 11 times so that averages about 200 miles. However on one occasion it went for 500 miles before it happened so I could be without it for quite a while and he says he doesn't have a loan vehicle, of any type, available. Even if he does get it to happen, and is finally convinced there is a problem, does he then have to try something and run it for another 500+ miles? I could be without transport for months! :bang: I just want him to bypass the OEM immobiliser but he won't do it because of the cost to him. It looks now as though I might be moving towards litigation.

Looking back over the times it's happened I've become more and more convinced it's the van's own immobiliser that's causing it. I was interested to read this thread since the problem seems very similar. Does anyone know if the key code unit scans the key continuously or just when it's turned to start? One of the main problems is that due to it's age there doesn't seem to be anyone around now with specialist knowledge of that system. If anyone knows of one in the Cambridge area I'd be mightily grateful.