Re: Australian Fiat Ducato water ingress unsealed engine and rust
Hi to all the Fiat Ducato owners across the world

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It feels strange yet empowering to be able to communicate from here to so many so far away all at once

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As you will have gathered I live in the best country in the world Australia,
especially if you love the Motor Home experience. Which I do.
There is an endless supply of larrikin characters, space, views and World Heritage sites to last anyone a lifetime.
I truly

love a sunburnt country,
A land of sweeping plains,
Of ragged mountain ranges,
Of drought and flooding rains,
I love her far horizons,
I love her jewel sea,
Her beauty and her terror -
The wide brown land for me.
Sorry to digress, dreaming thats the great part.
All is Ok until you get a poke in the eye with a blunt stick as they say.

I currently own a 23 foot Fiat Ducato/Jayco combination
This is my second Motor Home of the same type however the Fiat component is now the upgraded new Model 160 multijet 3 litre turbo.

My story begins with the first Fiat/Jayco Motor Home I purchased (from Jayco dealer), which was supposedly Brand New or so I thought. There were no Kilometres on the 'clock' and all the advertising stickers banners alluded to it being Brand New.
I asked all the right questions, the sales person couldn't lie

could he?
I found out he can and did when it was accidentally admitted to me that my specially coded Fiat entry key was lost at Australias largest Motor Home, caravan 4wd leisure show that boasted attendance of more than 80,000.

This made sense as their was unexplained damage to the interior, windows etc that was indicative of over use, yet there were no recorded Kilometres.
When I finally challenged the Jayco dealer it was admitted in writing that my Motor Home had been used for viewing at the said show.

In Australia we have legislation to provide protection for customers- Fair Trading Dept ending with the Consumers Trade and Tenancy Tribunal (CTTT). When threatened with this the Jayco dealer submitted securing me a replacement Brand New Motor Home.
I thought that would be the end of it. I was excited, the new 'Born to be a Motor Home' Fiat Ducato 160 Multijet 3 Litre Turbo Diesel sounded 'flash, very swanky' but so does Myocardial Infarct of Cerebral Vascular Attack which is what I had when I popped the bonnet at 600kms.

OMG OMG what I saw defies belief especially on a brand new Motor Home only a few months old.
My engine compartment looked like it had been submerged under water for 50 years (ofcourse it wasn't). The metal engine block was white with corrosion, the injector well was full of water, needless to say the injectors were badly rusted as were other metal parts, the bonnet insulation was wet and mouldy and I had already had other problems dealt with.
Horrified and suffering another check engine light problem I returned to the Fiat service yard.
Yes I was another victim of the Fiat Water Ingress that is so widely reported on your European sites.

However I learnt of a Fiat Negligence that I have not yet seen reported which was the obvious reason that my engine looked as it did.
Three individual Fiat Reps told me "Fiat forgot to seal the engines at the Factory"and "thats what the recall is for"

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In Australia we were delivered a recall notice stating it may be necessary to 'apply a sealing coating to the injectors area'.
This was an absolute lie and a trap to lure customers into the service yards.
This was what was really intended admitted or explained to me by the Fiat service rep;
1 Use a high pressure air blower to blow the rust and corrosion from the entire top surface of the engine compartment throughout the rest of the engine compartment.
2 Spray a corrosive rust and corrosion convertor over all surfaces including rubber seals hoses and fabric injector cables leave for 4 hours,
3 Use the high pressure air blower to blow away the powder that developes from the converted rust,
4 Apply sticky yellow goo over most surfaces that will never be able to be cleaned or look new.
5 Place a plastic cover over the injector well so as not to see the water- a bandaid not a fix according to the experts

I gave strict instructions to the Fiat service man not to carry out this recall until I take photos as evidence. I wanted clarification of the recall also as it was only the Injectors mentioned nothing like the above.
The service repairer went against my instruction, began the lengthy process, which I caught him in the middle of.

I rang and complained to Fiat they said I have to go through with it and accused me of not attending to the problem sooner.
I was

. My Motor Home was only months old and lets face I didn't forget to seal the metal engine housing at the factory. How dare they blame others let alone have no empathy for those who have financially supported their brand and given them on going jobs.
The recall had to be completed however during the process the Fiat service rep damaged the plastic grill and parts.
I challenged him on all accounts he did not like this chased me from the building wont discuss or talk to me, wont order parts etc etc.
In Australia we are told to return to the dealer -Jayco in this case.

Unfortunately the Jayco section of my Motor Home is also unmerchantable -
well reported and documented including major manufacturing faults that involved full deconstruction of the Motor Home already due to a lack of roof sealing allowing water ingress into the nose cone or Luton Peak as well as major noises built in at manufacturing stage ( so much to report) and many other faults to numerous to name now.

So with the definition of 'merchantable quality' according to the Dept of Fair Trading Australia I have taken my case to the CTTT.

To be merchantable it must be fit for the purpose for which it is intended giving special consideration to the price and all other considerations.
The Fiat bonnets design funnels water onto/into the engine housing well instead of the regular bonnet design being to provide protection from exterior elements. Fail.
The top section of the engine has a very deep water collection well, haven’t Fiat heard of a radiator for cooling LOL.Fail.
The Injectors are not supposed to be indefinitely fixed to the engine compartment through rust, they are intended to be removable in the future. Fail.
The overflow pipe that is supposed to take water from the windscreen wiper area to the outside instead of onto the motor is on the wrong side or designed for the European camber of the road ie we drive on the opposite side of the road so the water doesn't have the correct fall to drain away.Fail.
The last time I used one sided adhesive tape was not to join two large pieces of plastic together (pieces at the bottom of windscreen) causing a sponge like effect filtering the collected water into the engine compartment. Fail.

Fail Fail.

I tried one last attempt to work something out with Fiat so I rang Mr Dick Hull the Managing Director of the Fiat importer Ateco.
His answer to me was "so what we already have 60% of the
World wide market".
What a Hull of a D_ _ k Mr.


That brings me to my interest in your forum, not only do i want to share good experiences but some of your members have complained about some of the Fiat neglect aspects with comments like close your cheque books and storm the Leisure shows tell them its just not good enough.
Together we the customers are the only ones who can force a reslove of this issue. We deserve to be compensated for this

I wanted the world to know even if I am the only one I am standing up to Fiat and in the famous words with a twist of an outgoing Prime Minister 'May God save the Fiat customers because nothing can save the Fiat Ducato' its a LEMON

IvaFiatNightmare

Hi IvaFiatNightmare
Welcome to the forums, unfortunately you are just another victim of Fiats failure to fix the water ingress problem on the new X250 Ducato. This has been a problem since the release of the X250. The first 3.0 models did not have the "engine cover" fitted & there was a recall to fit these but it only applied to the owners who complained about the water entry.
The only thing that this acheived was to cover the rusting injectors up - "out of sight out of mind", the fitment of the plastic cover then caused other problems - feeding the leaking water on to Throttle bodies & fuse boxes etc causing these to fail.
The other recall was to spray the already rusting injectors & steel components with the yellowish goo you mentioned which would only seal the already rusting injectors etc in. There are numerous cases in europe where the water entry on vehicles fitted with the 2.3 engine which has timing belt where water has entered the belt cover & then froze resulting in the belt either breaking or jumping a few teeth when the engine was started which then results in engine damage as these are interference engines.
One vehicle I know of, a 3.0 had to have a new cylinder head when it went in under warranty to replace the glow plugs & a couple snapped off necessitating the head removal only to find that the injectors could not be removed as they were also rusted in to the alloy head & could not be removed without damaging the head. Fiat UK would only pay for the work on the glow plugs, the owner then had to fork out for the new cylinder head & replacement injectors & additional labour.
It is a real pity that Fiat does not seem to take this fault seriously what is now 4 years since its release & want to fix this problem properly (& the gearbox problems in some models) which is a pity because the X250 is basically a very good vehicle. I assume they take this course because when the time comes to service the injectors etc it is out of warranty & not their problem!
see related threads - https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/112468-multijet-130-water-ingress-6.html
https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/236615-help-please.html
https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/224432-fiat-ducato-130-multijet-timing-marks.html

Cheers :bang: :bang: :bang:

Hi FreeSpirit,
Thanks so much for your information, it has really been a big help. Not only do I feel like someone is listening I believe in safety in numbers so as to speak. One question are the engines you mentioned in Australia cos I would be interested in talking to anyone about this problem.
I refused to have the cover fitted for the very reasons you have stated so now I feel more at ease with this decission.
I asked for the Injectors to be removed when I first found the problem, they refused me, needless to say they did not want to start the job for the reasons you state.
I have a lot to say but I keep getting logged out if I stay on to long so will continue in another message.
IvaFiatNightmare

Personally I have never had a problem removing the injectors.

IvaFiatNightmare said:

I have a lot to say but I keep getting logged out if I stay on to long so will continue in another message.

Click to expand...

Tick the 'remember me' box at log in and you wont get logged out after 15minutes

Hi Again
Yes both the 2.3 & 3.0 engines are sold in Australia but out here the 3.0 would be much more common, whereas over there in the UK/Europe due to the cost of fuel they seem to sell more of the 2.3 & I think there is also a 2.2 engine available as well but these aren't sold here in Oz. The complicated procedure in changing the timing belt on the 2.3 is enough to put me off buying one of those. You would probably get the same consumption out of the 3.0 if driven correctly especially on a motorhome. If I can be of any further help PM me would be interested in the problems with the Jayco you have had.
See - http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/fiat-water-ingress.shtml This was where the Press release from Fiat UK regarding the water ingress was originally posted but then somehow suddenly disappeared, lucky I took a copy He!! & what a lot of corporate grap it is.
Cheers

Hi moderator,
Do you have a Fiat Ducato like the ones mentioned, or are you a repairer who is repairing these Fiats?
Thanks
IvaFiatNightmare

Hi FreeSpirit,
I think I remember you 'name' from the Supertramp.com.au site.
I was very interested in telling everyone about my plight but Merv the overseer suspended my member account even though I was willing to comply with them.
IvaFiatNightmare

Hi FreeSpirit,
Thought I would keep this on open viewing because the whole world needs to do something about the companies that are getting fat on their customers misery.
When you buy a Brand-New product in excess of $100,000 AU one expects to get their monies worth.
Fixing major manufacturing defects or faults as an after thought defeats the very reason for buying Brand New.
I see a lot of threads pertaining to 'THE FIX' well I am not interested in the fix I am stating that my Motor Home is not of MERCHANTABLE Quality at delivery according to the ACL (Australian Consumers Law) and am demanding via the CTTT an entire New Replacement Motor Home.
If Jayco get their component to be fault free (LOL)and the Fiat engine compartment is the same I am going Staight back to the CTTT.
I dont care how many times I have to do this Fiat need stopping.
I can see clearly this was PREMEDITATED as the problems were already in existance when they started shipping them to Australia.
I am also sending everything I find to Julia Gillard. Maybe she will know the correct Government body to look into these BODGIE products ie skuttlegate and shuddergate.
I purchased my Jayco/Fiat Motor Home in Coffs Harbour NSW, the Jayco dealers in the area.
Wow they are a piece of work unto themselves.
I have hundreds of pages outlining all the problems or manufacturing faults and defects all of which are currently in the hands of the CTTT.
It is as I have called it a modern day CARTEL.
Jerry Ryan who owns Jayco also owns Coast to Coast products which all Motor Home builders use to supply the internal products etc.
Jayco closed an account with another repairer in Coffs Harbour disabling him to deal directly with Jayco for parts for their Clients making him have to deal only through the Coffs Jayco dealership.
This is problematic, this is directing the market so as to limit customer choice and competition.
I say this because it was due to my dealings with this other repairer during the first motor home debaricle the above occurred. Insurrance not warranty.
The Motor Home I have now and the one going through the CTTT was won as an out of court resolution. They falsely sold me a Motor Home as New when it had been in the Sydney Super Show boasting 80,000 visitors through the gates. The damage showed and is what led us to be suspicious.
They admitted it in writing then told me they were going to destroy the evidence. It was too late for them so as I say through their solicitor I secured a New Fiat/Jayco Motor Home.
The New Motor Home was delevered to me without SECOND Stage Compliance hence was unable to be registered. But thats a whole other story. Of course I refused to accept it.
The third Motor Home delivered to me was built on the famous Born to be Lemon Fiat but also was striken with so many major faults and defects from the manufacturing stage.
This was reported from day one and the list grew.
All was OK until the Fiat rep in Coffs under the instruction of the director of Jayco dealership organised for the 'recall' to be done whilst we were attending another appointment for the check engine light.
I was suspicious so returned to the Fiat yard and busted the repairer in the act.
He destroyed evidence as well as the engine compartment and plastic bumper and radiator cover.
While at the Fiat service yard he said yes I will change injectors, yes I will order damaged grill etc but once I left the yard he refused to do any of it and then further refused to have me or my Motor Home back to the service yard.
I went to the Fiat dealership in Southport for my low kms service, I asked for the exact same replacements he said "you'll have to return to the Dealer" that being Jayco in Coffs Harbour.
I did this and armed with the other very major Jayco defects and faults that were present at delivery I demanded the replacements.
Much to my dismay the Sales Manager who I had been dealing with through all of the above refused to discuss anything with me.
Just to fill you in One Family own this dealership, which includes the service centre which is run by one of the brothers. I have had so many bad fixes and refixes as well as replacements from this Jayco service yard, they alone constitute CTTT action.
There is no incentive to sell a fault free product as the service yard would suffer through a lack of workwhich would mean the entire dealership would suffer.
I was forced to correspond with the repairer who is now stating he is the temporary manager.( Youngest brother syndrome as the others have sales positions)
This man caused part of my problems, when he took a Fiat/Jayco problem and made it his own by going against instructions and then using a years worth of avoidance tactics to use up my warranty period.
You see they just keep changing hats so you actually cant get past this person to get any satisfaction.
I was asked to provide my Motor Home to an independent body for viewing, guess who put up their hand, you guessed it, 'he' is now the Jayco expert as well.
Luckily the CTT didnt go for this, it would not be objective.
Initially this dealership were only a used caravan yard so have not upgraded their knowledge to include the regulations of a NEW product. No excuse but creates a boligerant attitude.
The local Fiat service centre has also become victim to their own up graded ego cos they now have a diagnostic computer which makes them special (not).
With them denying me service at their yard because they did the wrong thing and like an emu want to bury their head in the sand and pretend it will go away if they say so is also a problem.
I purchased this brand locally so I could have it serviced locally.
The diagnostic computer is not available in all centres, the nearest being QLD.
What if something were to happen, how do I get service if this man refuses because he broke the unwritten contract with me damaging parts etc.
How can this be an acceptable practise to Fiat.
There was no internal mechanism to resolve the issues at the time but its too late anyway, because its not only the Fiat that is unmerhantable its the Jayco part as well.
I spoke to Mr Dick Hull Managing Director of the Ateco company inporter. He said he had never heard of these problems before, had not looked at the net and didnt care because Fiat already have 60% of the Motor Home worldwide market. He said I was the only one complaining and "you're going to the CTTT aren't you" and then hung up on me. PIG.
I have told all concerned I will never stop and I am computer savy and young enough to be in their faces for a long time. This is not FAIR TRADING.
IvaFiatNightmare

Hi guess what, Merve and Renee Harvey aka Supertramp are running a bias and prejodice forum.
I have now just found they have removed my thread all together.
I only began to write on this site because they themselves were complaining about their Sterling and how bad it was then I found another member also complaining but said lets name names.
So I did.
He threatened me with suing etc, or Jayco might sue him or some rubbish when we all know if you are telling the truth you cant be sued,
Must be being paid by Jayco but they have only added fuel to the fire.

Have you heard that MICE are cannibals, well I am now the third mouse. I know you will get my drift as I am sure I have seen your name on the Supertramp site.
For others someone has a footnote or signature that states 'the cheese is for the second mouse' not clever enough im afraid.

They'll keep for another day I like my dishes served cold.
There is one rule for some and another for another.
IvaFiatandaJayco Nightmare

Just a quick current forum update,
I am still in the Consumer Tribunal australia or CTTT with matter above.
Since the matter began in the CTTT 20mths ago more manufacturing faults have been discovered.
The Fiat engine is still an extra water feature as seen on the UK Motorhomers chanel and the rust on all bolts and engine metals is increasing.
Before delivery the Fiat service operator had to replace part of the dreivers side door lock which I didn't know about until they supplied by summonses the warranty sheet.
This means the internal plastic door housing was pulled apart to do this repair and consequently the plastic arm rest on the drivers side door has started to come apart or separating at the joins.
On a brief trip the dash shook and jumped around so much it cracked the perpex spedo guage cover from underneath at the screws point.
I have found what I feared in the Jayco section which was mould growing up the wall from where they found the Manufacturing fault of water ingress.
This water ingress has found to have been over the entire roof section with really bad rotting on the ply floors where they meet the walls.
The list keeps growing and I keep trying to make the businesses responsible do the right thing.
I have just learnt the CTTT in Australia has no real power as they are unable to enforce any Order made on behalf of one of the parties.
And that in Australia you can only enforce a monitory Order through the Local Court System.
All other Orders are never enforcable by any government body.
The CTTT have no power to force a dishonourable business to be honourable.
Thats why all business like ATECO the Australian Fiat Ducato importer knowingly have imported Fiat Ducatos with the extra water feature and knowingly sold them to unsuspecting Australian Customers.
They wont even replace or fix under warranty the other faults that have occurred because of this manufacturing fault.
Leasons learnt I supose, but the pen is mightier than the sword and a little knowledge is a danderous thing.
IvaJaycoNightmare

Hi
This may not get to all forum members but I've just found out that FIAT is no longer the Italian Icon we all thought we were buying.
Fiat has been bought out by Crysler.
This is the case in Australia Russia America and other countries.
Any problems now have to be directed to Crysler.
Great like everything else the Maunfacturing design faults finally got the better of them and Crysler are hoping to increase the poor Fiat sales.
Lotus and Ferrari are still Fiat owned.
I learn something new everyday in the CTT tribunal australia.
Thanks and heres hoping Crysler will fix the Ducato water feature before further production and sales.
The Model is to run for 10yrs beginning 2007 and there have been no design changes yet.
IvaFiatNightmare

Originally Posted by adlarplant
i thought i was the only one having probs bought the van in feb 11 so far ive replaced 4 injectors a fuel pump 2x o2 sensors a turbo front springs thermal fans ix ac fan unit 2x hvac controllers 1 x oil level sendor 1x rhs headlight 2x spare wheel carriers 3 x engine idlers and the list is climbing its done 257000kms but most of this happened in the first 85000 fingers crossed it keeps going cheers adam


Hi,
No your not the only one as I have come to find out through sites such as this and word of mouth.
Wow you really have had a severely faulty Fiat Ducato with all the problems seen accross the net all rolled into one.
If the Kms you state are correct I am terrified because I have not been travelling in this Fiat Ducato/Jayco Motorhome because of the unmerchantability of both sections the Fiat and the Jayco House so mine has only done 23,000 in 4 years.
I also have had several replacement parts including air-con, throttle body, engine idler, brakes, a really really bodgie pretend recall to cover the lack of sealing of the metal housing at the factory that surrouds the injectors which are now rusted in the engine trench because it is always full of water due to the water ingress from the bonnet.
The Fiat service man did this recall against my wishes and blew rust throughout my engine bay which has settled in all remote spots screws etc that are now rusting to the body.
The rust converter was sprayed to liberally and damaged the plastic radiator grill cover, and corresponding seal on the bonnet has broken down.
Since that time the perspex speeedo dash cover split because the whole dash jumps around vibrating violently on most road surfaces in Australia.
The drivers side arm rest has come apart due to an undisclosed repair to the locking mechanism befor time of delivery.
The lock on the drivers side fails sporadically.
The bonnet 'felt' protector is wet and mouldy from the water ingress.
The air turbo seal is crushed and water pours into the plastic 'shoot'.
I was still in warranty and the Importer and the Fiat Service centres refuse to fix the damage that they caused and also the obvious warranty faults.
I dont believe that these Fiat Ducatos are fit for any customer market, I dont believe its fair trading but so many are willing to put up with their problems and those like you and me who have the worst lemons of a product suffer because of this.
I was sold my Fiat Jayco Motorhome as an Investment.
An ongoing investment in Fiat spare parts I guess is the truth.
I really do feel for your situation but I did feel better when I realised that when the 'seller' says 'I don't know what your talking about everyone else loves their Fiat Ducato, your the only one whose complaining" there are others who share my disappointment with the Ducato and the ongoing liability which is just disgraceful when you buy 'BRAND-NEW'
People need to know before they purchase not after, 'fore-warned is fore-armed'
Thanks IvaFiatNightmare

Some of the faults you have described are not water related though

Fact is (and you probably don't want to hear this, but these motor homes are incredibly popular here in the UK and are common site on the roads, there are also loads of outlets that hire them out to holidaymakers. I would buy one if I could afford one, which is highly unlikely

Maybe our climate is better here

Thats right there are so many problems that span the entire Fiat which is only worse not better.
I would never purchase any Motorhome on a Fiat base, the future hatsle of parts and sevice in Australia are too dubious too uncertain.
If England and Europe have different warranty rules and can distribute parts quickly there may be more reason for you to purchase one there.
Australia has much more vast distances to travel, its basically a different experience for any vechicle but just because there are many of these on the roads doesn't mean there aren't many many disgruntled owners who dont think a Brand New Vechicle should be falling apart breaking down or rusting and moulding before your eyes.
There are thousands of Ducato owners needing help to fix an endless list of small to major problems on the forum, some of us have so many of them all at once that it is irrelevant whether or not some Fiats are great cos the Fiat Ducato Maxi is not.
I thought I was being 'FLASH' purchasing my motorhome on a European well know Brand. It couldn't be further from the truth everywhere I go with my motorhome other Fiat Motorhome owners ask is yours the same.. yes mine is.....
Don't shoot the messenger is all I can say.
Weather shouldn't be a condition on a New Car Contract, but I live in a semi tropical beautifully temporate all year round, sublime climate perfect for Motorhome existance.
IvaFiatNightmare

I just wanted to add I hope anyone who wants to travel anywhere in a Motorhome no matter what brand it is has an absolutely wonderful journey.
But thats the point, a wonderful journey not a sucession of breakdowns, so by letting customers know of the problems they can first make up there own mind and then maybe if enough customers say they expect a perect product for their money not a faulty this and that, then maybe thats what those potential customers may get one day.
That includes yourself, and I hope by the time you are spending your money they will have been improved.
It's too late for my experience but my experience adds to the volume of complaints that may one day force Fiat to make the changes as mentioned occur and you will have the perfect Fiat Motorhome experience.
If they dont make changes you will either be writing similar comments of probs or just secretly hide them like so many others which there is nothing wrong with, but I'm not one of those.
I am only half way through my life and expected to own this Fiat Motorhome for most of the remainder and that is not possible to do with confidence in the product and I am deeply sorry that this happened to me and all others.
IvaFiatNightmare

My 3.0 litre X250 has rain washing through the engine. It has rusted the throttle control body, glow plugs and the injectors. I have used silicone sealant along the bottom of the windscreen and this has worked well. One bit hasn't stuck and is allowing water in, but the problem is much less than when I first bought it. Driving on flooded roads yesterday and no problems, ironic that water from below does not cause a problem!

IvaFiatNightmare, I fully understand what you are saying but a lot of these faults you are talking/quoting are not water ingress related. Has the vehicle actually broken down due to the water ingress?

Have you had any modifications carried out by an official dealer in relation to this issue? (not including the application of anti-corrosion substances to to any engine parts?

Legally (as far as I am led to believe here in the UK) your complaint is with the seller is this the same in Australia?

What is the state of Fiat dealerships in Australia, such a big market surely warrants close scrutiny from Fiat and the performance in this country?

Have you tried any repairs yourself to cure the water ingress?

WOW what a nightmare, I'm glad I've got a 1997 now, I don't think I would have ever bought a fiat if I'd known of all the problems with them, I hope you get some satisfaction in the end.
Now the other thing, Australia the best country in the world? oh come on mate, those Wombats that flip your car over if you run over them? I'll stick to Hedgehogs they just go flat if you run over them lol.