Technical Cutting out and non starting 1.9JTD - is there a link?

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Technical Cutting out and non starting 1.9JTD - is there a link?

Retro Pedro

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My 1.9JTD 05 with 108k on the clock as just started giving grief by cutting out shortly after initial start up. It usually starts up with no problem and after the cutting out episode usually restarts with no issues. Sometimes this can occur just the once then on other days can happen a couple of times in sequence. From there it runs OK.
Just lately it's started giving me another problem by the starter motor spasmatically not spinning the engine. It just makes a clicking noise, as if it's not getting enough power. Then on the next day the starter motor will fire the engine up with no problems. Initially I thought this part of my grief would be resolved by a new starter motor but now I have doubts. I'm beginning to wonder if there is a component that is giving a false electrical signal/not functioning correctly.
The last time the car wouldn't start, I was able to give it a gentle tow start and it fired up straight away. Previous to that a gentle roll down a slope backwards and then engaging reverse gear seemed to free the starter motor and it fired up on the key.
Although there is no EML light coming on, I'm thinking of getting a diagnostic done to see if that throws up any fault codes.
I did have non starting issues a few months back which turned out to be lift/priming fuel pump related. After swapping around a couple of 30 amp relays and reseating the other two relays in the cabin fuse box the non starting was resolved and apart from these latest issues, was running fine.
I've recently replaced the two 30 amp relays with new genuine Fiat ones (which made no difference). The crank and cam sensors were both replaced with genuine Bosch new replacements earlier in the year. Also the EGR valve was taken apart, cleaned and was functioning correctly, so I'm sure the fault doesn't lay with these components.
If anybody as got any ideas, any pointers would gratefully be received.
 
Have a look at the earth lead from your battery to the gearbox. Happened to me last year. After changing the starter motor, it was no different. Then I found out about the earth lead.
 
Nearly gave up the ghost and booked it in with an auto electrician tomorrow to left them have a look and circuit test.
Prior to that, I did find a good 'youtube' take that showed how to test the starter motor, ground for a voltage drop. It even showed how to make a 2 way test circuit controlled by a 2 way switch that could be viewed by a single person positioned in the drivers seat whilst cranking the engine if that makes sense - might be easier to post up the link if allowed.
Anyhow, had the chance to go out and have a go at it today, disconnected the earth strap from the gearbox and gave the connecting surfaces that clean up with a wire brush. Then disconnected the negative battery terminals and gave them the same brush up. Checked the connections on the back of the starter solenoid terminals and all seemed good. For good luck, gave the starter motor a gentle tap with a bit of wood. From a non starting situation last Thursday and after having a tinker today, it started up with the first turn of the key.
Took it out for a run and thought I'd cracked it - that was until it cut out at a junction. It did restart straight away and it was the only single cut out.
Then I realised that at a point earlier last year, I had swapped the existing battery for a lower cranking output one. The replacement battery is in a better condition, but beginning to think, that potentially the lower output might have a bearing to what is going on. Been having a troll, and I think the 1.9JTD diesel should have a 75/76 battery but from memory, the one I've got on is 65, might even be lower.
Picked up on the following info from another thread:
As high Ah as possible, around 75-80Ah, and start-amp at about 700A should be ok for the 1.9JTD
Also something about voltage dip will throw up funny messages etc.
Going to charge up the original battery and put that back on tomorrow and see if that makes a difference - if not I'll keep the appointment with the electrician just to see if there is something weird going on with wiring etc.
 
Mine's an 06 plate. The original battery 12v 60AH 380A and lasted for best part of 5 years.
When I came to buy a new one, I put my reg in & was recommended a much higher CCA. The one in there now is 62AH with a 720CCA.
interestingly, the original battery (labelled as a Fiat part) is the identical battery to the one my youngest had in a 1.3 petrol Fiesta:eek:.

I mean, the amount of ooomph required to turn a 1.9 diesel lump must be huge compared to what a 1.3 petrol would need?
 
Try adding a extra earth lead from the engine to battery, thats what sorted my vans gremlins about 3 quid and ten minutes to fit
 
Hope I'm not tempting fate, but to date, it's starting first turn of the key since I did the earth strap connection clean ups - happy days(y)
However, it still stalls/cuts out. Noticed that it's worse after it hasn't been used for a few days. Got in that situation today, it hadn't been used for 4 days and the conditions have been damp to say the least. Then today, realised it only cuts out when I apply to foot brake. Done a few brake testing pull ups and found that it I didn't touch the foot brake and stopped by using the handbrake it behaved perfectly. As soon as I went back the using the foot brake, the cutting out started again. Once the car as warmed up all returns to normal with no cutting out.
So I'm thinking maybe there is a connectivity/damp in electrical connector problem somewhere. My first thoughts are the stop light switch on the foot pedal, but not totally convinced because the brake lights work perfectly. Reckon I need to trace the associated brake wiring through and check all the connections. Having read a bit about the CanBus wiring circuits, would a fault in one system trigger a problem that potentially feeds the ECU with conflicting signals being sent out (from the ECU).
 
Really weird this cutting out business. Some days it's fine and doesn't cut out then on other days it does it 3 or 4 times before it warms up a bit, then it appears fine. The cutting out whilst the foot brake is being applied seems to have sorted itself out and doesn't do it anymore.
The next chapter is it seems to cut out when facing uphill, seems fine when it's facing downhill. First noticed this the other day when I pulled and went indoors for about 30 minutes. Car was facing uphill, came out and started it up only to cut out straight away. Done this 2 or 3 times and then it sorted itself out. This on a warm engine.
Bought myself one of them OBDII code readers and plugged it in live with the engine running. Even drove it for a couple of miles plugged to see if any more faults were added to the list should it cut out - sod's law it didn't.
Anyhow the 2 fault codes that showed as explained by the OBDII booklet are:
P0046 - Turbo/Super Charge Boost Control Solenoid A Circuit Range Perform
P0101 - MAF or VAF A Circuit Range Performance

Please does anybody know the significance of these fault codes.
Only my logic, but can't see how the Turbo would make any difference at initial start up. Potentially the MAF (mass air flow I believe) might be playing about so I think I'll take that off and give it clean out. Is there any other test that I can do to see if the MAF is OK?
 
Check for loose pipes or pin hole in one or the intercooler.

Wouldn't be the first time a MAF get blamed for an air leak.

These are known for the rubber hose form the intercooler wearing on the gearbox.

Also, when was the fuel filter changed? They can add to cutting out for no reason.

As for the battery problem, multiplex wiring does get affected by lack of voltage. Try a good battery for a few days.
 
Cheers Andoo for reply, really appreciated.
Interesting about the intercooler - oddly enough I noticed what appeared to be similar to a slight coolant leak in the top front radiator which I reckon is the turbo intercooler. Completely dismissed it because surely the intercooler rad doesn't carry coolant, apart from perhaps a small amount of overspill oil/grud from the turbo, should only be forced hot air being cooled as it's being pushed through to the induction side manifold.
Also, part of my dismissal was that rad is the furthest forward so the rain elements hit that first, hence me dismissing it as rain water draining away.
Thanks for heads up and definately worth an investigation.
Have thought that perhaps at some point, it should be worth taking the intercooler out and giving it a flush out with diesel or parafin to get rid of any grud that may be lurking in there.
Done this a while back on my Off Roading toy with an oil burning old school Isuzu 2.8 diesel turbo lump, and was amazed at how much grud came out of it. Bliss that engine, no ECU, no sensors, pure mechanics all the way(y)

Straying a bit, but going onto the coolant system on the Doblo, it has lost a small about of coolant, approx. 1" down in the header tank in 6 months and 2,000 miles. I've noticed that there seems to be a valve arrangement in a coolant pipe that runs between the engine and the bulkhead. This valve looks like a small approx. 10mm ish pipe branching out of the main coolant pipe. In the top is a ball bearing and it appears coolant has leaked past this small ball bearing. Not alot judging by the how much I've lost from the header tank so not been unduly worried about it. I have checked if this small amount of lost coolant had dripped down onto the crank sensor and starter motor but it appears all is clean and dry on those components. My question is, should that ball bearing valve thing in the coolant pipe have some sort of cap on it, like can be found on an air con pipe release valve or is that normal to be able to see the ball bearing in the coolant pipe?

Re the battery, I'll give the spare decent Numax 110 cranking amp battery a try and see if that makes a difference. I'm convinced there's a voltage lose going on somewhere. I fitted an old Panasonic radio/CD player in it that previously worked with no problems in my daughters Focus. It appears the Doblo radio harness wiring as been cut and changed/swapped (yellow and red wires which I believe are constant live and ignition live). I did check this out with a multimeter and am convinced I've got it right with connectivity into the radio. Believe this is a Fiat thing when fitting non Fiat supplied radios. Battery doesn't drain when car is left standing for a few days so I'm convinced the live wire connections are OK. There's also something about data cables in the harness, which I believe are CANbus related, which are not connected into the radio. Anyhow, after working OK on initial fitting, the radio blips and goes into a 'muting' mode. Occasionally, after initial start up or going over a bump, the radio initially works again, then drops back to this muting mode. This is where I'm getting my voltage drop suspicions from.

The fuel filter was changed last May so I think I'm safe to say that should be OK.
 
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I should think the valve arrangement is for the bleeding of the interior heater. Can you take a photo & post it on here?

These cars are notorious for leaking radiators! Indeed, mine was leaking when I bought it, but I applied K seal (American stuff) which cost 9:99 for a few hundred mills of what looked like cold tea with milk. But it sealed it up proper! Not a drip in 1000 miles.

The leaks tend to come from where the metal meets the plastic on the ends of the rad.

There will only be a misting of oil under a leak from a punctured intercooler. A brownish mess like Ronseal on a fence :D but getting blacker and thicker as time goes on.

It may take a day or two for the car to start acting "normal" after a battery change as the ECU relearns all the standard parameters. All the sensors will have been giving "faulty" info to the ECU, which will have adjusted to try and keep the engine running. Once it gets the proper voltage, any bad resistance is corrected and it should come good.

In other words, don't expect it to behave perfectly straight away. It will be like a slapped child, upset until it see's a lollipop :D
 
Cheers again Andoo for reply
Had a quick look and got it completely wrong regarding the rads.
Turns out the top rad is in fact is the air con rad. Clean pure water with no discolouring or smells. I'm hoping this is rain water condensation on what I assume is a very cold radiator. Not the time of year to be using the air con but I did switch it on with warm air setting the other day to help demist the interior cabin. Last time I used the air con proper, it was ice cold. I always thought the air con was gas charged but perhaps there is a water variant for the Doblo.
The very bottom small rad is the intercooler and that looks clean as a whistle. Did attempt to check out the turbo pipe by wedging the throttle as approx 2500rpm and couldn't feel any air blowing anywhere. Reckon I'll give it another try when it's dry enough to climb underneath the car and with the wife controlling the throttle.
What did strike was how flimsy the turbo pipe from air filter to inducation manifold is. Very easy to squeeze but it fairness it didn't expand or balloon with the limited turbo pressure of 2500rpm. That said, the turbo seems to work fine - can actually feel in coming in at just under 2000rpm under normal driving conditions.
 
Without tempting fate and touching every bit of wood on the planet I haven't had the cutting out problem for the last 6 weeks.
What happened was that I couldn't get the ignition barrel to turn with the key inserted. Decided not to force the issue and gently push and pull the ignition barrel slightly. Eventually it clicked into position and the ignition fired up. My logic is that perhaps there's a bit of wear in there and it's clicked back and rectified a potential shortening of the immobiliser.
I've added another 9000 miles since I originally posted, and to be honest, after doing the second earth strap, I'd decided to chance my luck and run it until it finally chonked out proper job (bit brain in glovebox logic I know) but because I depend on it for my daily runner I couldn't afford to not have it running if I'd tinkered about with it and got it wrong.
Again touching wood, it's happy days(y)
 
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