Hi all,

I have this well known condition (with my car I mean ) and I would appreciate your help. The car is a Seicento Sporting Abarth '99 SPI. Here's the story:

1. Sudden death: 2 days ago I start the car, take it out of the garage, leave it running on idle for a minute to close doors and stuff, come back and the engine's off. It never started again. It cranks but it doesn't start.
2. Out of the blue: No previous problems or signs of hesitation during acceleration, abnormal idle running, power cuts, etc.
3. Dashboard lights normal: No check engine or other strange lights come on. CODE goes off immediately and injection light goes off 1-2 seconds after I turn the key to on (even without cranking). When I crank, oil pressure light also goes off. Only light remaining is battery.
4. Fuel tank at 3/4.
5. Battery is in very good condition, and I charge it after the checks I do (that naturally involve a lot of cranking) before it gets too low.
6. When I crank there is air coming out of the exhaust.
7. Removed, checked/cleaned fuel filter. There was fuel under pressure in the lines.
8. Got to the fuel pump. Turn the key on, it primes normally. Disconnected the out line, turned the key, pump spat fuel. Connected the out line back on, disconnected the return line. Turned the key, pump works, fuel coming out with pressure from the return line.
9. Took out the air filter housing. During cranking I can see fuel sprayed on the throttle body.
10. Took out spark plug leads one by one and checked for spark with a sparkplug connected. All had spark, although the longest cable (cylinder 4?) seemed to be a little weaker.
11. Took out and checked all spark plugs. Everything seemed fine. They have 30K (km) on them.
12. Took out the crankshaft position sensor (CPS). NOT in pristine condition. Had to clean oil residues and the outer layer of the cable where it meets the body is somewhat cut leaving silver lines (ground?) exposed.
13. Disconnected the CPS. Then the injection light comes on after key turn (as always) but doesn't go away even if I crank (expected)
14. With the CPS connected but taken out of its place just siting somewhere else, the injection light comes on after key turn (as always) but doesn't go away even if I crank (expected)
15. If the car sits for hours, in the next 1st attempt it looks as if it might start (coughs) for a second, but it doesn't. (I find it strange that it does that after sitting for hours)
16. Cranked for long without gas (in case it was flooded), nothing. Cranked for long with gas, nothing. Cranked after priming the pump 4-5 times, nothing.

So,

Fuel
I believe there is no problem because of 4,7,8,9. But can't be sure about sufficient pressure. Did seem enough though. Had a hard time keeping fuel from coming out with my thumb even on the return line during 8. (I know a pressure test would be nice, just don't have access to a tool right now)

Air
I think no problem because of 9.

Spark
I think no problem because of 10. Not sure about strength though.

Timing
No info on that. 12 suggests a faulty CPS but in that case, could 3, 9, 10, 13 and 14 all happen? I mean when connected, there's fuel sprayed, spark and no check engine light. Disconnected or misplaced, light comes on. Shouldn't this mean I should have a light if it is faulty? Anyone know how I could test with a multimeter? (no oscilloscope, sorry)

Exhaust
I think no problem because of 5.

Compression
No info, but 1 and specially 2 suggest this shouldn't be the problem? (I know a pressure test would be nice, just don't have access to a tool right now)


CPS and pump are the main candidates, but I don't want to start the replace this replace that (expensive) game.
Maybe even a ground problem (no way to check timing or accurate spark from coils)? But then again a sudden death with no previous signs?

I would appreciate any guidance/tests/suggestions.


Thanks

I'd start by checking the timing. Could be the belt has slipped a few teeth. (are you absolutely sure the belt hasn't snapped?), Would also check the water level and for any sign of oil in it.

Secondly (If the timing was all ok), i'd do a compression test.

Thirdly, Assuming that was ok on all 4 cylinders (and assuming i had no access to a programme to plug a computer to it read the ECU and sensor parameters), I'd change the Crank Sensor.

It does sound timing related though. You can get away to a certain extent with most issues, As long as the timing is ok and you have fuel, spark and air, it should start.... it might run like absolute crap with a sensor out or low compression on a cylinder or two, or even poor spark on one or two... it might be close to undriveable and cut out constantly, but it should spark into life.

The only things that really stop starting completely it if you have fuel, air and spark are getting them all at the wrong time OR having an Head gasket go so spectacularly, it has almost no compression on at least 2 or 3 cylinders.

After attempting start are the plugs wet or dry?

D

No much time to deal with the car today (luckily there's another).

@mrcinquecento
Water ok. The belt is in place. Didn't have time to check for slip but I recon a small slip wouldn't keep the engine from starting. Would run roughly sure, but no start?
As for the compression test, I'm an amateur that likes to do things by himself. The Sei (and my other car) haven't given me that many problems over the years, so I haven't gotten me a compression test kit or a fuel pressure kit (yet ).

@rallycinq
During the checks I cranked the engine every now and then. When I took out the plugs don't remember how much time since the last cranking had passed, but surely no more than 5 minutes. The tips of the plugs were dry, the body I'd say kind of wet (not much. Not helpful I know.. If I had to call wet or dry generally I would say dry. But I'm not a master in judging plugs).

After reading some other similar threads in here, where there also fuel and spark were present and yet the CPS was the culprit, I decided to change it anyways, since it's not in a good condition and it has a lot of chances of fixing my issue (and it costs 25€ ). I ordered it today, will have it tomorrow.

Hope I'll be reporting good news.

Nope. That wasn't it. Changed the CPS, but no changes.

The mechanic I used to take it to when something was to much for me doesn't have a diagnostic tool for the Sei.

I can always take it to the Fiat dealer but I would like to avoid that for economic reasons.

This thing, that after sitting for hours, it looks like it's gonna start on the 1st crank, could that be a clue to something?

try starting then quickly remove plug to check wet or dry

D

Will do and report, thanks for keeping up with this.

Oh sorry, forgot to mention, after changing the CPS and not seeing any improvement I decided to do something I didn't want to but was kind of desperate. I sprayed brake cleaner to the throttle body while I had my dad cranking just to make sure it's not a fuel delivery problem. Nothing at all. I guess that rules out injector, pump and fuel pressure problems?

Am now leaning towards spark/coil/electrical problem..

Concerning the diagnostic tool, I am using a bluetooth elm dongle along with torque in other cars. Any chance I could make some kind of cable to connect it?

Check the engine timing, it won't cost anything to check it.
The belt may be in place but that doesn't mean it's correct.

EPa said:

Will do and report, thanks for keeping up with this.

Oh sorry, forgot to mention, after changing the CPS and not seeing any improvement I decided to do something I didn't want to but was kind of desperate. I sprayed brake cleaner to the throttle body while I had my dad cranking just to make sure it's not a fuel delivery problem. Nothing at all. I guess that rules out injector, pump and fuel pressure problems?

Am now leaning towards spark/coil/electrical problem..

Concerning the diagnostic tool, I am using a bluetooth elm dongle along with torque in other cars. Any chance I could make some kind of cable to connect it?

Click to expand...

I was going to suggest spraying a little fuel into the throttle body,
I'd put a little petrol into a trigger spray bottle,( household cleaner bottle)

as I'm not sure how well the brake cleaner would work in a compressed engine .

I can tell you my panda 1108 did similar - belt had jumped 7 teeth

was a faulty pump pulley:bang:

Charlie

Cylinder 4 (by the oil cup): dry to the touch..


At some point I took out the plug from cylinder 2. I was able to see fuel on it evaporate in a few seconds then it was like the one in the picture.

I see your problem ( made in FRANCE....)


TBH - I'd expect the exhaust gasses to smell of fuel if it's not attempting to fire / burn it


obviously that's not ideal for the catalyst


My panda got ran for 20 seconds to move along driveway..

came back in 2 mins to reverse back - would not even attempt to start.

ended up being trailered to FIAT specialist ( who'd fitted the belt and waterpump kit 12 months earlier) they found the belt was 7 teeth out, and replaced belt and pump
no physical damage to engine..

Here's something interesting I think. As I wrote above, if the car sits for an hour or two, then at the 1st attempt it looks like it's gonna start (it revs up a bit) but then it revs down to what the power of the starter manages.

I've now found a way to reproduce this whenever I want:

- Remove fuel pump relay (the red one found above the ecu).
- Ignition on, no pump sound, crank, injector light comes on, and car doesn't start (as expected)
- Put fuel pump relay back on, ignition on, pump can be heard priming, crank, injector light off and it seems like it's gonna start (revs up for a second) ! ..alas, it doesn't and falls back to the power of the starter.

Every time I cycle the above actions it looks like it's gonna start.

Looks like fuel pump can't keep pressure up with a running engine? How much should it be? Around 1 bar ?

varesecrazy
During cranking no puffs no bangs and no gasoline smell afterwards

You mean a *water* pump pulley was responsible for the timing belt slipping?

If it's a fuel issue then it should run on brake cleaner that's sprayed in to throttle body. Maybe try it again just to be sure.
Think fuel pressure at the injector should be 1Bar. Small Allen key screw on top of injector to adjust pressure.
Does the lambda sensor have only 1 wire to it.??

EPa said:

varesecrazy
During cranking no puffs no bangs and no gasoline smell afterwards

You mean a *water* pump pulley was responsible for the timing belt slipping?

Click to expand...

YES - Water pump belt lost tension and jumped 7 teeth)

it does sound like it's electrical..and possibly temperature related,

as said ,
I'd get it to "chuff" until it stops, then spray a fuel into the throttle body,
if it chuffs again instantly - you have a fuelling issue..

unless you test it for fuelling at this point , it could still be a coincidental failure ( of another component)

:idea: find another identical relay on the car..there may be a few.. swap them for a test..

I had this with an immobiliser relay years ago:bang:

TBH - I'd check the cam timing anyway - as it's a simple job

varesecrazy said:

TBH - I'd check the cam timing anyway - as it's a simple job

Click to expand...

How simple? Please tell me you mean something easier than taking out wheel, wheel arch liner, alternator belt, crank sensor pulley, cambelt cover in order to see the marks..

Hey, just saw this (cylinder 4 on the coil side):


in the Cinq/Sei SPi Spark Plug and Ignition Lead Change guide.

But mine are set like this:



as shown in the Major Components - Pictures thread. (cylinder 4 lead -according to the coil markings- going to the cylinder on the belt side).

I can see in the picture above the markings on the block labeling the cylinder closest to the coils as 1 (agreeing with the previous picture), but then why does the coil labeled as 4 (the closest to the viewer in this picture) go to cylinder 1? That's how it is in my car also.

What's going on?

Your car uses 'wasted spark' ignition. 1 and 4 are the same coil and 2 and 3 use the other coil. Not an issue for the leads to 1 and 4 to be switched. If the coils were completely wrong there would be flames shooting out the TB.
I am convinced its a fuelling issue. Either injector or relay.

D

EPa said:

How simple? Please tell me you mean something easier than taking out wheel, wheel arch liner, alternator belt, crank sensor pulley, cambelt cover in order to see the marks..

Click to expand...

lift bonnet , remove 4 or 5 small bolts , remove cover

BUT I'd still do the test with an injection of fuel 1st.. as it does almost sound like a fuel supply issue - by your comments on the relay.

So I guess switching 2 and 3 is also not an issue right? Does this mean they fire in pairs?

I have switched the fuel pump (red) relay with the ignition relay (black), no difference. If either is taken out, the injector light comes on and I can clearly see no fuel being injected to the throttle body.

Whereas normally not only can I see fuel injected, but almost a cloud being formed below the injector all around. Nevertheless I tried today spraying extra gasoline, also electronics cleaner, no change.

I borrowed the tool and made a compression test (dry only as I in a hurry to return the tool and forgot about wet). It seems there is a problem. Cylinders had (from belt to coils) 70-almost 90-almost 90-60.

The test being a quick dry after all this time that the car isn't working. Think this would make a car with no previous detectable rough running shut down and never start again?

I tested the plugs with a multimeter found nothing out of the ordinary (they all look like the one in the picture above).

I thought maybe a key problem but that would prevent the injector from spaying fuel, right?

I am gonna try borrowed coils next..

YES - they fire in pairs.

compression - don't rush into stripping the engine, should still RUN on those figures.

varesecrazy said:

lift bonnet , remove 4 or 5 small bolts , remove cover

Click to expand...

Please elaborate (am not a mechanic and not very knowledgeable as you see). You mean cam cover? So if I could see the cam and valves how would I verify timing is correct?