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Technical 1.1 SPI head + 1.2 MPI block

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Technical 1.1 SPI head + 1.2 MPI block

Razman

Razman

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Hi guys, I've had a pretty thorough search through the forums, but sorry if it's been done to death already.

My car has the 1108 SPI engine that comes standard with all cinq sportings. A friend around the corner from me owns a 2002 punto 1.2, which I believe makes it MPI?

It recently blew its head gasket, and he has come to the decision that he wants to scrap it (bit of a shame really, I offered to fix it but he refused) so I was wondering if I could make use of the 1.2 block and pistons, and mate it up to my 1.1 head, is this possible? If so what sort of problems would I encounter?

At least this way, I could avoid all the re-wiring that comes with an MPI engine!

Thanks in advance!
 
It'll bolt straight on. Use the SPI ECU and effectively you have a Punto 60 engine. The only issues will be that you'll need to use the cam pulley from the MPI head and find a cam belt to suit.

Don't use the SPI pulleys, 'cos the Punto one has a torsional damper in there (presumably for a (good) reason).

Of course, you'll need to use the Cento engine mount.
 
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I would compare both crank auxiliary belt pulleys before doing anything. Both will be 60-2 teeth, but the two missing ones could be set at a different angle in degrees. If they are not the same, it will mess up the ignition timing. If your not shure, fit all the cam drive system from the original engine to match the Ecu ignition Map settings.
 
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fingers99 said:
Problem is, he needs to use the Punto one (it's the one with the harmonic balancer -- the thin rubber band thingy).

Liberties are being taken with fuelling, too, can't see ignition advance being spectacularly significant.
Click to expand...

This is where the problems start because of the different oil pump.

You need to match the pulley system to the Ecu exactly or the ignition mapping will be out. Fuelling is another issue. A few degrees can make a difference between, Power, less power or a broken engine. It's down to the original map.
Factory Ecu's are a lot more advanced than the aftermarket varieties generally. They can adapt to change within reason but the newer versions are more sensitive to this due to emissions.
Ignition will be less tolerant than fuelling due to lack of feedback sensors to compensate. A knock sensor helps with this if fitted but won't help with cold/warm start up.
If you download the free Omex mapping software and have a browse, you may understand the complex settings for setting up an engine just to start, let alone the fine tuning. Any other Ecu software will be the same.
I had to build a Hybrid engine to try and compensate for the changes, but it did not work and ended up buying an Omex to take full control of mapping. If you can adjust the crank pulley, if needed, to the required settings, you will be fine for ignition.
 
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cc1 said:
You need to match the pulley system to the Ecu exactly or the ignition mapping will be out. fuelling is another issue. A few degrees can make a difference between, Power, less power or a broken engine. It's down to the original maps.
Factory Ecu's are a lot more advanced than the aftermarket varieties generally. They can adapt to change within reason but the newer versions are more sensitive to this due to emissions.
Click to expand...

I can't see it. We're taking about a Euro 3 block which is identical to a late Euro 1 (P60, etc.) block, some of which even have the boss for the Euro 3 knock sensor. Folk have run P60 engines (which is essentially what it will be) on 1108 ECUs for years. The only possible issue is the higher rev limit on the 1108!

Remove the harmonic balancer, however, and no-one knows what will happen (crank could well snap).

To be sure, nothing will be optimal. But the ECU can be chipped, should there still be someone out there burning them. It's an SPI car, FCS!
 
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fingers99 said:
I can't see it. We're taking about a Euro 3 block which is identical to a late Euro 1 (P60, etc.)
It's not just about the block but the pulley system. Are Spi cinqs/Seicento/Early Punto trigger points the same as the Punto Euro3?

Remove the harmonic balancer, however, and no-one knows what will happen (crank could well snap).


To be sure, nothing will be optimal. But the ECU can be chipped, should there still be someone out there burning them. It's an SPI car, FCS! This is fine if the mapping is for the right engine.
Click to expand...
Spi /Mpi engine, It does not matter. The simple part is, whether the trigger points are the same between these engines and Ecu's. An earlier Punto pulley will probably be needed to match the timing settings?



 
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I've already got a gazzaman chipped ecu, so I would've thought that'd help. By the way, mckritch still does them, i emailed him a month or so ago and he replied and gave me a price etc.

All in all, do you reckon I'll be okay then? I'm not even sure if anyone has actually done this combination before (probably I would imagine).
 
fingers99 said:
It's not going to be very far out at all. Certainly not enough to cause det.

In nearly 10 years of doing this, I don't think anyone has encountered a problem.

Euro 4 is a very different kettle of custard.
Click to expand...

Good good. (y)


[badjoke] Yeah I bet the euro 4 is really slow, what with all the custard in the cylinders [/badjoke]
 
cc1 said:
Just remember that the donor engine is MPI and changes were made with the injection system. Good luck.
Click to expand...

Donor block is MPI. Were the engine MPI, I'd suggest an aftermarket ECU (if the late MPI type wasn't available). For all that, folk have run MPI engines on SPI ECUs.

I'd love to see the advance curves for the 1.2 MPI engine. But in advance of that, I'd advise the OP to use the standard 1108 (or 1242) SPI chip. I'm pretty sure the "aftermarket" ones (except, maybe, the turbo ones), have more advance. If that's OK, by all means try an aftermarket one.
 
fingers99 said:
Donor block is MPI. Were the engine MPI, I'd suggest an aftermarket ECU (if the late MPI type wasn't available). For all that, folk have run MPI engines on SPI ECUs.

I'd love to see the advance curves for the 1.2 MPI engine. But in advance of that, I'd advise the OP to use the standard 1108 (or 1242) SPI chip. I'm pretty sure the "aftermarket" ones (except, maybe, the turbo ones), have more advance. If that's OK, by all means try an aftermarket one.
Click to expand...

Good advice, thanks!

Then again, if I were to go to the trouble of wiring up an MPI I'd probably just go for the 16v ;) seems an 8v is similar work for less gain.

Do you guys know anybody running an engine of this combination? If so, it'd be great to chat with them. If not, then I guess it's a first! If it works, then people looking for the ageing mk1 1.2 SPI engine have a better option. You can pick the mk2 punto lumps for peanuts nowadays, so it'd be a nice, cheap option.

(y)
 
ycming said:
I agree with CC1, compare the alternator belt pulley between the Cinq and the MPI punto. If is different use the cinq pulley!

Ming
Click to expand...

Let's apply some logic to this.:eek:

1. No-one fits harmonic dampers to crank pulleys for the fun of it. Running the Cinq pulley on the MPI block will, sooner or later, result in massive engine damage. :bang:

2. If the pulley is different in regard to where the 2 are missing (we know it is different with regard to the damper!) all it does, of itself, is set the static timing. This isn't uber important (as the engine, while running, cannot -- by definition -- be static). It might well be that while the static mapping is different, the engine is behaving exactly the same at anything over 1,000 rpm.

3. Before reaching any definitive conclusion, we have to wait for some kind Polski person to
send us the advance maps for the engines in question. However, given that the cylinder head in both engines is identical (apart from a tiny bit more squish area in the 1242) and given that the 1242 has a longer stroke, I'd expect the ignition advance curve for the 1242 to be a little (but not a lot) more radical than the 1108. (More time to fire more mixture over a greater distance.)

4. If the missing 2 are wildly different, the OP might usefully look at an SPI 1242 pulley. At least that won't destroy the engine!
 
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Well said! I'll go get an SPI pulley soon, and then I'll report back :)

To save me starting another thread, would you happen to know what colour wire the tachometer signal wire is on the back of the dials? I can't make any sense of the Haynes manual!
 
fingers99 said:
Let's apply some logic to this.:eek:

1. No-one fits harmonic dampers to crank pulleys for the fun of it. Running the Cinq pulley on the MPI block will, sooner or later, result in massive engine damage. :bang:

2. If the pulley is different in regard to where the 2 are missing (we know it is different with regard to the damper!) all it does, of itself, is set the static timing. This isn't uber important (as the engine, while running, cannot -- by definition -- be static). It might well be that while the static mapping is different, the engine is behaving exactly the same at anything over 1,000 rpm.

3. Before reaching any definitive conclusion, we have to wait for some kind Polski person to
send us the advance maps for the engines in question. However, given that the cylinder head in both engines is identical (apart from a tiny bit more squish area in the 1242) and given that the 1242 has a longer stroke, I'd expect the ignition advance curve for the 1242 to be a little (but not a lot) more radical than the 1108. (More time to fire more mixture over a greater distance.)

4. If the missing 2 are wildly different, the OP might usefully look at an SPI 1242 pulley. At least that won't destroy the engine!
Click to expand...


You will have to use the harmonic type pulley because of the oil pump fitted, so as to get the crank sensor to line up.

Point 4; is what I'm getting at. Ignition maps are setup to work with the pulley and the trigger point with reference to TDC and are linked to the factory setup.
If the pulley trigger point is not identical to the factory setting with reference to TDC, the map will be out by however many degrees of change.
You can use any trigger angle, but then you set the map to calibrate the firing point in degrees of advance or retard at minimum required RPM.
The rest of the map is adjusted/set accordingly.


An example of sensitivity within some ECU's is: An MPI engine that has had a cambelt change and comes up with, random multiple misfire so needs a phonic reset to stop the engine management coming on.


For a different engine to run correctly, you need the trigger point to match the settings within the Ecu exactly.
 
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