Hi everyone,

I am in the process of planning a 1.4 16v engine conversion for my seicento schumacher.

I wont be doing it until I can get some suitable insurance (have been driving a company car so no claims bonus yet)

Anyway I am planning to find a suitable donor stilo to use. This seems the simplest way forward.

Anyway the fitting of the engine seems simple enough, its quite well covered.

However i was wondering if people knew how interchangable fiat sensors are between engines specifically sensors between the mpi engine and the stilo 1.4.

My plan is to follow honeymonster's cue and use a det 3 piggyback as it is perfect for this and makes wiring much simpler. However the mico ecu i have needs to not go into limp home mode when connected to the 1.4 engine.

I am hoping i can fit all the mpi sensors to the 16v engine, is this possible. Or are the sensors on the stilo compatable? Am not expecting it run the engine well, but i dont want it going into limp mode.

My other question is, can you fit the stilo exhaust manifold? Is it a good design?
I saw a thread where on a turbo car a bracket was made to move the radiator away from the manifold. It was on a turbo car but am hoping it will provide enough clearance?

Finally, i plan on using the stilo inlet along with fuel rail. Is the fuel rail compatable with the mpi fuel line? Does the mpi fuel pump provide enough flow? I know it provides enough pressure!

Do i need an external fuel regulator? As per a cinq conversion? How does the mpi regulate pressure?

If anyone can answer any of this i would be grateful!

Cheers

Just a few points (I have not done mine yet, -- and mine will go in a Cinq, so.........)

Anyway I am planning to find a suitable donor stilo to use. This seems the simplest way forward.

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Or an Idea. The Idea uses the 5 speed box, which should be just fine and -- being shorter -- an easier fit.

The sensors -- although they're not identical, should be compatable for the most part. But what TB are you going to use? The Stilo (and I think, Idea) is fly by wire so you'll need a different TB. Unless you use a Mk1 16v one (or possibly a Brava/Bravo one) you're likely to find that the pot sensor and the IAC are incompatable. This poses no issues for folk going with an aftermarket ECU (K series and Ford TBs are popular choices in this case). I'm not sure if the DET/Micro ECU combination can handle this.

Easier, perhaps, even than the DET 3, would be to use the ECU, coil packs, and coil pack holder thingy from a Mk1 16v 1242 Punto. Ideally it needs a remap, but it's a much tougher and easier ECU to work with than the horrible micro ECU.

Fuel pressure on your Sei should be regulated by the ECU. I'm unsure of the delivery volume, but there are plenty of alternative cartridges out there -- you may be able to use the Stilo/Idea insert.

I think Ming did it pretty much the way you're intending and used the Stilo mani cat, with a little attention from Mr.Noisy.

Hi,

Thanks for the reply, i was planning on using a suitable throttle body like j333evo. I think he used a k series one? I know i would need an adapter. However as you say that is unlikely to work with the micro ecu.

I am getting tempted in getting an punto sporting donor, however this means a 1.2 engine.

But i would get pretty much all i need in one go?

If you use the mk1 bravo 1.2 16v inlet manifold with the non returnable fuel rail, your standard fuel pump and built in regulator will do the job fine.

The MPI conversions are a right hash of mix and match parts. Alot of people today still don't realise how many different cars I had to dive into for my old 1.2 16v conversion (basically the same as 1.4 16v) .

Wiring wise it's all plug and play as the sensors are the same between the MPI sei's, and the 16v engines.

The ECU doesn't control the fuel pump like that fingers. All it does is trigger the relay that powers the coils, lambda heater, injectors and finally fuel pump. It's all regulated inside the tank next to the pump. Hence no return line .

Personally however, I wouldn't use a piggyback setup as You are supposed to run a second batch of injectors (surely?).

I would spend the extra buck and buy a MS unit or something standalone. Atleast then your getting better value for money in terms of dynamics, and mapping. It's cheaper to map a standalone unit then to try and fine tune a piggyback.

Thanks

X

Cheapest of the MS units (pre-built) is the Microsquirt, which is pretty much the equivalent of the Canems unit J333EVO and I are using. Of course, you get more -- and arguably more complication -- with the full Microsquirt.

J333EVO used a K Series TB on the first car (the red Sei) and a Ford TB on the silver trackday Cinq. ECUs were Emerald (the last series, not the new, very expensive, one) and Canems, respectively.

If I read Honeymonster and Woj's stuff correctly, the DET3 can run in a number of modes, the most sophisticated one of which relies on the ECU for very little indeed.

Don't be overly put off by the wiring issues. Any recent aftermarket ECU should be "fit it to see if it works" in an afternoon, make it neat and professional, in a day. Your back will hurt, but what the hell. It's just a matter of getting hold of the wiring diagrams and labelling.

The Canems manual (just for reference and because it's a quick download) can be got (as injection manual.pdf) here.

Rolling Road set up is pretty much a must. If you find a Mk1 16v, the cams are said to be hornier than the Mk2 or 1.4 16v.

Cams are dependant on which mk1 engine you pull them from. Seen 3 different versions so far and only one of the 3 had the "golden" goodies in .

Why use a K series body when if using the mk1 bravo inlet manifold? The 1.6 16v brava/bravo TB is plug and play? It also has an alloy adaptor plate that can be removed modified to accept cable bodies onto the newer plastic manifolds (don't need that plate for the 1.6 body so it can be unbolted to make way).

Thanks

X

Todger182 said:

Personally however, I wouldn't use a piggyback setup as You are supposed to run a second batch of injectors (surely?).

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No

Todger182 said:

It's cheaper to map a standalone unit then to try and fine tune a piggyback.

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And no... (in fact you will already have a base ignition map)

However I wouldn't be keen to run the DET 3 with a micro ecu for one reason. One of the few things still used on the original ecu when running a DET 3 with fuel implant technology is the coil drivers. The coil drivers on the micro ECU are notoriously rubbish and fragile. For that reason I would be very reluctant to use this system with the micro ECU however it's about time some one fitted the stand alone ecu master product this side of the pond.

I was hoping somebody would correct me on my outdated look on piggyback systems .

Agreed that the micro ECU is the biggest (well smallest) piece of crap that fiat fitted . They were quick however to correct the fault the following production year. Although Panda's and MK2A 8v Punto's were still fitted with this system... Anyway .

But anyway the conversion itself is very easy, just not cheap . But that said, no engine conversion can be done on the cheap. A better car can be bought however and possibly still have change for insurance.... I'm not putting the conversion down, only making a point.

Thanks

X

Why use a K series body when if using the mk1 bravo inlet manifold? The 1.6 16v brava/bravo TB is plug and play? It also has an alloy adaptor plate that can be removed modified to accept cable bodies onto the newer plastic manifolds (don't need that plate for the 1.6 body so it can be unbolted to make way)

Click to expand...

Well, they're bigger! But I did cover the Bravo/Brava TB earler in the post.

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the replies! Thats useful info about the brava inlet manifold, think i will go with that!

I have had a look at microsquirt, i remember it from years ago and its changed a lot! I think it couldnt run a car engine before? You needed a megasquirt? Anyway it looks ideal. However as with all stand alones its not that cheap, looks like it would be about 300.00?

How fragile are the coil drivers on the micro ecu? Will running different injectors make them more likely to fail? Or should it of done it already?

One of the attractions with det 3 is the price, about half the cost of standalones and there is very helpful info on here about it.

Maybe its best to get a punto sporting donor and use its ecu then use det 3 to allow me to get the engine to run its best and for when i start tuning it.

Maybe i should get a better seicento, though this one only has 33k miles! If i believe it at least.

Oh and Merry Christmas!

The Micro ECU is ok for the 1.1 and 1.2 8v engines. It's not great for 16v conversions, but then it did run mine without any "massive" issues. Obvious one being the constant management light, but didn't tamper with the running of the engine.

The newer ECU on I tested pirus' conversion however, the light never stopped as soon as you hit 4krpm . Never did find the cause of it other than lambda .

Downside to swapping the MK1 Punto Sporting ECU is the fan is controlled via a temp resisted relay rather than the ECU switching a relay like the MPI sei's. So you need to get hold of the resistor relay circuit from the donor car and hard wire that in too. Otherwise a manual override switch, a gauge, and a third eye watching the guage would suffice .

Are you planning to do the conversion yourself?

Thanks

X

Hi Todger,

If the micro ecu will run the 1.4 engine then that's great, I think I may try the micro ecu and det 3 although it's tempting to find another cento.

Yes I am planning to do it myself, I have removed and replaced engines before, not fiat but French ones!

I have access to hoist etc so the actual swap should be easy enough, it's all the little bits that worry me.

Hence why I want to keep it simple!

If I keep micro ecu I don't have to worry about imobiliser etc.

By they way is there a Speedo sensor on the stilo gearbox and is it compatible with mpi wiring? Cause it runs the power steering as well as Speedo?

Really, although it's a Sei, I'd be inclined to keep what you have rather than spend ages looking for a sound Cinq.

Another way round the rad fan issue is just to go aftermarket, or fit an aftermarket thermoswitch somewhere in the bottom hose for a Cinq like set up.

There is a speedo sensor -- if it should prove to be incompatable, it'll be a straight swap for the Sei one. But I need to be convinced that a 6 speed box is worthwhile on a Cento (unless you're fitting an LSD, where the chances are much better that the diff will be the bolt on type) although it's probably a must on a heavy old lump like the Stilo.

You're looking at approx a 100% power increase, so budget for better brakes, wheels, tyres and suspension.

Hi Fingers,

Yes am planning on upgrading the suspension, brakes and wheels.

I have fk 70/30 lowered suspension, and plan on fitting uprated brakes, are ones from mk1/2 punto sporting compatible?

A punto sporting is looking more attractive. Wish they came in 1.4 flavours!

Thanks for all the help, it's one of the great things are about these cars, the forum is easily the best I have been a part of.

The issue with the brakes -- don't worry about the rears, it's the front ones that do all the serious work -- is wheel size. Easiest to get are late Punto GT ones -- also used on Mareas and other stuff (full listing in the Guides/FAQs). The disks are vented, and they have big pad area. Best feature, to my mind, is that they not only are stronger and (much) more fade resistant than the stock ones, but have better feel. But for those you need 14" wheels (best to use 6J wheels, so you can take advantage of the relatively cheap -- but very grippy -- 195/45/14 tyres by folk like Uniroyal and Faulken). Other choice is the old Uno Turbo disks and calipers, which are a bit trickier to fit and harder to get hold of, but will fit under 13" wheels.

Hi fingers,

I already have 14 inch wheels as I have a Schumacher, but they are 5.5 wide tho? I think the Schumacher has a lower final drive in the gearbox so I will need to change it, (this is one of the reasons I want a donor car as I can get all I need from it).

I am tempted to follow j333 evo's example and use 15 inch wheels with 165/50/15 (I think). He mentioned it was one of the best mods he had done. I also plan on copying/stealing his rear arb.

How does the centos handle on 6j wheels on 195/45/14 tyres? Are tyres relatively inexpensive? It wasnt funny trying to find decent 175/50/14 tyres. I was lucky to find a pair of P6000's for 55.00 fitted each. But I had to wait a week for them.

Thanks for all the help everyone I do appreciate it!

Take a peek for the tyres. I think both the ones Aaron uses and the old stand by of 195/45/14s will be way cheaper than any decent 175/50/14s you can find (because that's such an oddball size).

I've run Uniroyal Rainsports and Faulken in 195/45/14. The Uniroyals have, to my mind, more consistent feel through a corner (my guess is that it's something to do with the sidewall construction), but the predominant characteristic is just grip, grip and more grip. Only time I've ever lost a car on either tyre was when I was punted off the road.

The Abarth box revs out about 500 rpm before the stock one, so it's arguably a better box for mixed A and B road blasting, not so much use on motorways and stuff. But, then, the 16v engine has a higher red line. Difficult choice.

Hi again,

I have had a peek and the tyres in 165/50/15 are about £120.00 for a pair of bridgestones. The uniroyals in 195/45/14 are about the same price. This is from event tyres.

I didnt realise that the difference in RPM is only about 500. I thought it was more. You do make a good point about A and B roads. I am tempted in keeping my current gearbox as it will simplfy the conversion and will mean less potential issues.

Will the 195/45/14 tyres fit my abarth/schumacher alloy's? Or will I need 6J wheels?

I am wondering how complicated the wiring for the stilo will be as if I can fit that then it will keep the inital costs down. I suspect it will be too difficult tho.

I am still considering a punto engine, how difficult is it to get the power of a 1.2 up to 1.4 levels?

Thanks for the information guys, I have been reading I promise! But its difficult to find information to my exact requirements.

cheers

With the right induction and stuff the 1.2 16v puts out about 10 - 15bhp less than the 1.4 16v. Someone claimed to see 115bhp from one, but I think it was a flash (and in need of calibration!) dyno reading.

You really need the 6J.

Someone said that there are 6J 14" FIAT steelies out there (I've never come across any, but that means nothing), alternatively the Multipla steelies are 15" 6J (the alloys are 6.5J and I think they look great, BWTH) and have 31.5 ET, which should be a good, workable offset. You should be able to pick some up for next to nothing (I was given some by a kind guy off the multipla section -- a real star).

My Abarth box is screeming its nuts off at 50mph in 5th... (14's)

I'd hate to take it on a long trip, it's poor with the short stroke 1.1 let alone something with nearly double the power. I'll be altering the final drive on mine, if you can get a better geared box you won't regret it.