Hi All,
I'm converting my Sei P75 engined car to the 1.2 16v in the coming weeks.

I have already bought a Fiat Brava 1999 low mileage engine.

My question is please:

How can I get around the lack of a Cam Sensor on my Brava engine whilst keeping the Seicento's wiring (Lengthened/Modified) loom and ECU?

- Will it run without ideally - probably giving error codes and displaying the engine light?

- Can I bypass it?

- Can I fit another cam cover with the sensor and hole?

Any thoughts would be very much appreciated.

I've already read through both Kriptips and Todger182's excellent threads but they both have the Cam sensor engines in their conversions.

Thanks very much.

To be honest i've unplugged my cam sensor to test if the engine runs or not and it never effected it starting up and running but my management light was on since I put the car back togther (wiring loom was slightly faulty).

You could possibly get away with it but it may generate a fault code.

Best way to test is if your engine is running the sensor now, unplug it and take it for a drive and stop and restart the car 3 times with about a minute between each.

If the light comes on then it will need to be plugged back in.

Push comes to shove I have a spare cam cradle from a tjet, which I think has the hole for a sensor.

Thanks

X

The only real reason its there is to help the car start faster, the ecu will use sequential injection as the cam sensor tells the ecu which piston is coming upto tdc first and can inject.

The car should and can run fine without it as when the ecu cant get a reading from the camshaft sensor, when the car starts without the its goes back to a default batch injection until the engine starts then it will run sequential again

Ash

Thanks for the replies and it's great to understand why the sensors actually installed.

I'll try disconnecting the cam sensor on my car first to see how it responds.

Todger182 - I may well need to purchase your cam cover with sensor hole, how much would you want for it should it be required please?

Jube said:

Thanks for the replies and it's great to understand why the sensors actually installed.

I'll try disconnecting the cam sensor on my car first to see how it responds.

Todger182 - I may well need to purchase your cam cover with sensor hole, how much would you want for it should it be required please?

Click to expand...

its not just a cam "cover" it holds all the cam assembly too so the engine would have to be timed to again

Ash

whitz said:

The only real reason its there is to help the car start faster, the ecu will use sequential injection as the cam sensor tells the ecu which piston is coming upto tdc first and can inject.

The car should and can run fine without it as when the ecu cant get a reading from the camshaft sensor, when the car starts without the its goes back to a default batch injection until the engine starts then it will run sequential again

Ash

Click to expand...

not totally true... the sensor is only needed for the first cycle of the engine to tell it when piston 1 (or what ever piston in the program) is on the power or intake stroke

without the sensor id imagine the car to run in semi sequential mode which is what older cam senor-less engines run... this is fine but the ecu is not optimized for it so would expect slightly less performance/higher emissions/less mpg

Thanks Craig that's very useful.

I've got some time on Noble Motorsport's Rolling Road this Saturday with fordcosworth and mariocinq from the forum, so I may have a run with the cam sensor disconnected to see what difference it actually makes.

Thanks all.

Jube said:

Thanks Craig that's very useful.

I've got some time on Noble Motorsport's Rolling Road this Saturday with fordcosworth and mariocinq from the forum, so I may have a run with the cam sensor disconnected to see what difference it actually makes.

Thanks all.

Click to expand...

Looking forward to seeing yours on the rollers mate should be good

shame the Cinq cant make it was looking forward to seeing what the new mods have done for the power.

jason

Right Guys,
A few further questions regarding the 16v conversion please:

1) What's the ideal alternator / crank pulley setup to give the minimum amount of work? (Does the engine mount have to be ground down regardless of the chosen components?)

2) Do you have to have the cam locking tools to time the engine correctly? If so, which is what I'm assuming, which locking tools do people recommend to buy please?

3) One for Todger182 - What did you use to paint your cam carrier with please as it looks ace.

Thanks all.

Jube said:

1) What's the ideal alternator / crank pulley setup to give the minimum amount of work? (Does the engine mount have to be ground down regardless of the chosen components?)

Yes you will need to grind or space the mount to allow clearance, and i used the seicento alternator setup but then my engine had the same oil pickup setup as a seicento engine. Some 16v engines have crank sensor ring on the inside and alternator belt pulley outside. Seicento is opposite.

2) Do you have to have the cam locking tools to time the engine correctly? If so, which is what I'm assuming, which locking tools do people recommend to buy please?

Any fiat 1.2 or 1.4 16v cam locking tools will do, all pistons need to be in line (mid cycle) with number 1 on the upstroke.

3) One for Todger182 - What did you use to paint your cam carrier with please as it looks ace.

Normal high temperature paint will do the job fine, or atleast high temp laquer

Click to expand...

Thanks

X

Thanks Todger182, that's great.

A couple of final questions please:

1) Did you spray or hand paint your block and cam carrier?

2) Does a Supersprint / Ashley manifold fit straight on to the existing Seicento exhaust without having to make any spacers? (I've already got a custom Seicento stainless steel 2" exhaust system fitted)

Oh, forgot to mention that when the cam position sensor is disconnected the engine runs fine with no engine light showing which is good news. It does however bring up an error code of P0340 when I run an ECU scan.

Cheers.

I hand painted my block and head which I will be doing again before I reassemble. I wasn't convinced that spraying it would apply and stay, mainly because of the heads "aero" style finish .

I had to get a new mid section made up as the diamter of the supersprint manifold is much bigger, same for the JA manifold (which is still to be sorted). I was ruinning a CSC manifold on my old 8v engine anyway so length wise my exhaust was fine.

Thanks

X

been looking at pulleys and such... I see no reason the mount needs grinding. if you use a pulley from a 8valve and the right alternator then make a bracket for the crank sensor to fit in the right position.

Id leave it to last and see what works for you.

I wont be grinding the mount when i go 16valve turbo.

craigb244 said:

been looking at pulleys and such... I see no reason the mount needs grinding. if you use a pulley from a 8valve and the right alternator then make a bracket for the crank sensor to fit in the right position.

Id leave it to last and see what works for you.

I wont be grinding the mount when i go 16valve turbo.

Click to expand...

im using the 16V pulley with a 8v alternator spaced out slightly (16v alternator pulley sits out way too far)

ive spaced the engine mount 5mm which is all i can get with a nylock and washers on the end of the stud there and ground a tiny around of the mount

Ash

ever thought of fitting the pulley on the alternator itself with a cinq one... thats what ive had to do in the past.

at the end of the day the bottom end is identical casting to the original engine so there is no reason for any of this grinding.
could even fit a oil pump of your choice and make the engine look totally factory fit with no changing/grinding/spacing of anything

Mine came with the same oil pump setup as a seicento mpi engine and i still had to grind clearance on the mount. It sticks out more hence the need to do either spacer or grind.

Pirus' engine came with aircon so the pulley is opposite way to mine and standard, and I want to retain the crank position on his engine and avoid the sensor falling out like kritips did.

Thanks

X

Thanks guys for all of your assistance.

i have to admit i am still with craig on this as i really cant understand why all this meesing about with grinding chunks ogg and spacing out needs to be done, surely if you use the alt, pully and carryier off the same 1242cc engine everything should line up and fit nice, lets face it all the blocks are the same, be it a 1108spi, 1108mpi, 1242mpi 8v or 1242mpi 16v

jube i really think we should just rebuild the block and trial fit the engine mount and altinator off the sei along with the alt carrier and see whats what, cos personally i think its all coming from trying to make 8v parts work with 16v parts thats causing all the problems ie 16v pully, 8v alt, sei mount and 16v carrier.

i cant see why there would be a problem using everything off the 16v setup that way the TDC wont need spacing (and possibly moving or falling out) the mount wont need to be ground and the belt will clear everything

are you taking the entire p75 engine out fully working ?
how much would you want for it if you do. ive a mpi seicento 1.1 realy want the p75 in mine
why are you changing? just want more power?
its guna be awesome and i look forward to seeing this done
well done
ricky

The blocks are the same but the oil pumps aren't, it's wider and in turn so is the sump.

Because of the 5mm added width thats why either of the "bodges" are needed.

Thanks

X