So, the FAQ says that a 16v conversion might be a good idea and suggests an engine from a punto sporting 1.2 16v that produces 85hp if i'm not mistaken. Since that car would be a rarity in Serbia, i was wondering if that engine was packed in some other cars? I think that fiat bravo has a 1.2 engine, but not sure if it's 16v. I understood that the 1.2 16v block has the same mount points as the sei's stock 1.1 8v MPI engine, and that the 16v block will bolt on to the transmission. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

So, long question short, what cars have the fiat 1.2 16v engine in them? Also, would the 1.2 16v be a good starting point for a seicento turbo project?


Thanks in advance.

P.S. I've read a lot of threads on this, but none really answered my question.

It would certainly be an interesting start for a turbo -- AFAIK, everyone has ignored it. There is the famous DavetheTrike Supercharged Punto 16v thread.

Issues are mainly around reducing the compression -- cheapest way on that engine would be to get the combustion chamber in the head machined (using a spacer to reduce the compression would be difficult on that engine, as it doesn't have keyed pulleys on the cams and would probably put the valve timing out).

Otherwise, go for it!

The engines are recognisably FIRE ones, very similar block, but the latest ones have the alloy built up sump.

There is the French Cinq which runs a 1.2 16V turbo with over 150bhp IIRC, been about for years on here, there was a nice long thread showing al his build including tubular manifold and some other nice work.

but that's not a sei

I have a friend that might be able to make some engine parts from me, it could take a lot of calculations, but it's doable. i was thinking about making shorter conrods, that should reduce the compression to any level i'd need, right?

It would, but it's a way harder job than taking a mill to a combustion chamber, by a factor of 10 or so and the effects of shortening rods are not all good (higher piston speeds, etc). Plus which, the quality of the materials, the engineering and the finishing have to be extremely high.

i don't think piston speed depends on the conrods, it would depend on the crankshaft (but altering the crankshaft would also alter the working volume of the piston and the compression and not in a good way

But you're absolutely right, working on the combustion chamber would be easier. i wonder if the 16v head has enough material that could be taken off to reduce the compression to some sensible level (8.0:1 - 8.5:1 ?)

Anyway, i don't want to get further away from the original question, which is: which cars have the engine i'm after, the fiat 1.2 16v?

nmrmak said:

but that's not a sei

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Makes no differance, same blooming car underneath, late Cinq even have same slam panel at front with bolt holes from Sei headlamps, and same scuttle panel below windscreen.

Late MPi Sei's also have lump in floor to fit the CAT as fitted on SPI models, hats where we put ours on our 1368cc 16V Sei.

There really is very little differance between them.

As to the cars, you'll find the engines in Punto, Grande Punto, not sure about the Bravo/Brava, but if it has a 1.2 16v it will be a FIRE engine.

For the piston speed, don't forget that the angle between the piston, rod and crank determine piston speed: you can have two engines with the same stroke and wildly different piston speeds.

For the machining of the head, if you can pick up a scrap head (maybe from a motor which has had a cam belt snap, which is often the end for the 16v ones) your mate should be able to determine how much he can remove either by a practice run or by sectioning it. (If he sections it, I'd love to see pictures.)

Sounds like fun!

Okay, i'll do some more research as to which cars have the engine i'm after. If we do section the head, i promise you pics

As long it's a 1.2 FIRE engine, the engine mounts will be the same, correct?

I'd like to go 16v because it just sounds like it flows much better than the 8v head, and that is a good thing

The mounts will be the same. Certainly the Japanese experience is that 16v engines flow better than 8v, with forced induction, and I can see nothing to contradict that at all.

After some research (don't have much time so this is going rather slow) i found out that apart from the 85hp punto sporting, there has apparently been an 80hp version out as well. The interesting thing is that there's a Bravo 80hp 16v engine as well. Could these two engines be the same, and will the Bravo 80 engine block have the same engine mounts as the 1.1 8v MPI seicento block?

If i can use the Bravo engine then it's going to be a much easier find.

Thanks a lot in advance,
nmrmak

Yes the engines are pretty much the same.

The extra power was made on the 85, through a larger (but shallower) throttle body, the 80 engine has a bit more torque supposedly from a deeper throttle body. So even if you buy an '80' engine all you need to do is swap the throttle body over if you want (ten min job).

Alternatively if you can find one the 1.6 16v throttle body from a Marea is even larger and this is what I have on my car now.

Other than that the only differences between the 85 and 80 engines is the exhaust manifold stud pattern is slightly different. On the early 16v engines the manifold stud pattern is slightly different to the later one (still used to this day on the 1368 16v engine) - but you do not need to worry about this, either will do.

Great info, thanks a lot!

So basically, i'm after the Bravo 1.2 16v engine if i can source it, and it will bolt on to the existing engine mounts as far as i understood. The fuelling and the ECU will have to be modded, but that's where megasquirt comes in

Many people told me they're a pain to decompress for turboing. Is a decomp plate an option, how good an option is it, and what do you think of other methods (low comp pistons, if any exist for that engine, shorter conrods, boring out the block and so on)

Bah, i can't edit my previous post

My local breaker told me that he has a Lancia Y engine and that it's the same one, so i'll have a look.

i have a bravo 16v engine in bits in the garage. recently took it out of a bravo/a and put a mk1 sporting engine in its place.

i wouldn't fancy trying to use the brava/o inlet manifold and TB in a cento bay, much rather use the punto setup.

aye, my 1242 was a bravo engine, coupled with a mk1 punto inlet manifold

Had to get the hacksaw out to cut off a mount though. Links in me sig

to be honest, i won't be using the whole manifold in its factory state, i'm going for a turboed version, so only the throttle body will be the same, and the inlet piping is going to be custom made. Unless i misunderstood what you're trying to say.

If this lancia Y engine is in good condition and fairly cheap, i'll probably buy it and see where it takes me All comments/advice are very welcome and much appreciated, this is the first swap i'll be doing. Perhaps someone could update the swap faq and include the bravo/brava and lancia Y engines for anyone wanting to do the 16v conversion, might be easier for people to source it that way.

cheers!

Of course, the plan from 3 months ago (heh, exactly 3 months ago) has failed, but luckily i'm back in action! So, just an update... Think i've done most of the research needed, and i'm after the 1.2 16v engine from one of the following cars:
- Punto sporting ('97)
- Bravo
- Brava
- Lancia Y

The one scrappy that has the engine has a very bad attitude so i'm not doing any business with them. Luckily, now that exams are over, i'll have enough time to make a few calls and hopefully get the engine soon. Another option is to buy the entire car, grab the engine and sell the rest to the scrappy

The route i have in mind for this conversion is:

Phase I:
Get the engine, do some work on it (refurb and head work). Get megasquirt, solder it all together and bench test it. Get some lower springs and shocks (it's about time to do the shocks anyway). At the end of this phase, i should have most of the parts ready and so the second phase could be done in a week or two.

Phase II:
Put everything in the car and make it work properly, using most of the parts i already have.

Phase III:
Turbo it (yeah, easier said than done). I found it interesting that people would rather turbo an 8v engine than a 16v engine, so i feel like i'll be doing something a little bit different (although i hear it's been done before, and successfully). Will need a way to decompress the engine slightly ("slightly" needs to be calculated first), new manifolds, de-cat (not only because of the power gain, but because i'll need space for the turbo ), oil cooler and intercooler (temperatures in the summer go up to 40 degrees celsius). My aim would be around 100-110 HP, which i believe is reasonable with low-to-mid boost. I could achieve the same thing the N/A way too so i don't think it will need high boost, and should be fairly reliable.

If anyone is interested, i'm not in the mood for any styling experiments like spoilers, blue lights all over (and under, hehe) the car and so on. The only thing i'll probably do is fix a few minor dents my dad made when parking it and paint it black. Maybe i'll need to roll the arches slightly so that some 14" 195s can fit, haven't read up on it enough though, so it's just a thought. It will look as stock as possible from the outside.

Since i'm a student, my biggest problem is actually time (been saving some money for this for a while), so i can expect the pauses between individual phases to be even 1-2 months (yeah, uni is more important ). Hope this won't be another dreamer project, and hopefully this time next year i'll be driving a 1.2 16v Seicento turbo

All comments are more than welcome, i'd like to hear any ideas that you might have, as they've all been interesting so far.

Oh, and yes, i'd like to thank you all for being very helpful in the past year and a half A forum where people don't flame each other is sort of rare nowadays. I'd also like to thank people like kritip and others who have done such conversions and made their pics and thoughts available to others, it's a huge help.

EDIT: Could a mod rename this from "Engine swap, 16v question" to "My sei 16v project"?
Thanks

nmrmak said:

Since i'm a student, my biggest problem is actually time (been saving some money for this for a while), so i can expect the pauses between individual phases to be even 1-2 months (yeah, uni is more important ). Hope this won't be another dreamer project, and hopefully this time next year i'll be driving a 1.2 16v Seicento turbo

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A student with money I know i never had any. Had plenty of time though

Oh, and yes, i'd like to thank you all for being very helpful in the past year and a half A forum where people don't flame each other is sort of rare nowadays. I'd also like to thank people like kritip and others who have done such conversions and made their pics and thoughts available to others, it's a huge help.

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Not a problem

Is it a sei mpi at the moment?

If you are going megasquirt route, i'd be tempted to get that all wired up and running on your current engine, using a relay board. Then you can just rewire the new engine loom once the 16v is in, and change the map. It will give you chance to get your head around it all. IT's a bit of a learning curve and something to get used too.

Kristian

Kristian

Yes, it's mpi at the moment, so i figure the current fuel pump will do the job (until the turbo jumps in).

The megasquirt idea is good... it would increase car downtime in the short term, but might actually save me some time in the long term, and i could drive a tuned 1.1 engine for some time