We had a nice day at the rolling road today for a bit of fun and to check how the 3 pretty differetn set up cars cars were running.

We had Emma's Seicento 1.4 16V N/A, Jamie's Seicento 1.1 8V hi-boost turbo, and Alex's 1.2 8V lo-boost turbo.

So first up the 1.4 16V, found to be running a bit rich bottom end, so Emerald tweaked.

92bhp at the wheels which is 109bhp@5787rpm at flywheel & 103lb ft(139.5NM)@4829rpm.

Then Jamie's 1.1 hi-boost, which unfortunately had decided to blow between turbo and manifold, so boost was probably a bit down. This car was set up by VAD about 4 months back, but was found to be rich at bottom end lean at top end, but all sorted now.

74bhp at the wheels 88bhp@5175rpm at flywheel & 106lb ft(144NM)@3362rpm.

Then lastly Alex's (CaneyJ) home built 1.2 lo-boost, which given it was set up by his mate using a wide band lambda and lap-top plus trusty MF2 adjusting screw driver was pretty much spot on fuelling wise once the fuel pressure was raised on standard regulator as it was running a bit lean before.

70bhp at the wheels 83bhp@5192rpm at flywheel & 102lb ft(138NM)@3213rpm.

All in good day out with some positive (non pub talk) figures from three cars that produced very similar torque results from three different angles.

Good stuff

Interesting result and not what I'd have expected. It'd be good to see the graphs.

coolio, i was looking at coming down as well but had a lecture to go to - which was cancelled.. so meh, oh well!

arc said:

coolio, i was looking at coming down as well but had a lecture to go to - which was cancelled.. so meh, oh well!

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Yes Jamie had said, shame you never as Chris would have run your car as well, it was V.cheap day for us all.

Looking good

Please i took the n/a route now. Yeah, torque is higher up, but looks like a powerful beast. You didn't all do 0-60 runs did you?

Aaron, did you raise the limiter to 7 or 7.5K? Where did the power start to drop off?

Cheers,

Kristian

kritip said:

Looking good

Please i took the n/a route now. Yeah, torque is higher up, but looks like a powerful beast. You didn't all do 0-60 runs did you?

Aaron, did you raise the limiter to 7 or 7.5K? Where did the power start to drop off?

Cheers,

Kristian

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Power starts dropping away pretty much straight after 6k, still makes good power through to 6700 but not much point running it higher than that as its really dropping by then. Chris did note that he felt the engine wanted to keep revving, so maybe exhaust and/or inlet could have a restriction. Though on reading the standard power outputs of the Panda 100hp its peak power of 99bhp is @6000rpm and torque of 97lb ft@4250 which says to me that it starts tailing off anyway, and the torque is produced lower down due to longer inlet track, but fact we made more torque higher up means the inlet may not be restricting it like we thought it may, as the 1.2's inlet as you know is slightly shorter and smaller than the 1.4's.

I think what it really demonstrated for me was that VAD turbo's did not make as much power as quoted by there r/r as Jamie's car's documents say it has 102bhp and 109lb ft, so yes it was leaking between turbo/manifold, but only lost 3lb ft, but was some 14bhp lower than quoted.

I doubt your exhaust system will be a restriction

J333EVO said:

Yes Jamie had said, shame you never as Chris would have run your car as well, it was V.cheap day for us all.

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am gutted i couldn't make it, and like i say - bloody lecture wasn't even on!

Ahh thought you might of posted up..

Yeah was a good day although Kirsty didn't enjoy watching *her* Sei on the rollers :devil:

Bit disapointed about the blow but hey ho it's supposed to be the sensible everyday car anyway

Like Aaron said mine was supposedly set up by V/A not long ago at all and to quote Chris "Running dangerously lean up the revs" so that just about sums them up!

If anyway else needs a power run/set up give Chris @ 1320 auto's a shout he's top notch
http://www.1320autos.com/

Yup, twas indeed a great day out and enjoyed by all. Am happy with the result and still plenty of ground to improve performance at current boost though the obstacle now is getting the engine bay cooler.

Here's some photos.

Found this online calculator where it works out flywheel power from wheel power. http://www.dyno-power-run.com/dynocalc.shtml

Emma's Sei's 92bhp@wheels we get 113.33bhp flywheel
Jamie's car 74bhp@wheels = 93.33bhp
Alex's car 70bhp@wheels = 88.89bhp

So I guess if you use r/r that has a bigger correction factor it will give cars more power.

Though you always have to quote flywheel power as this is what cars are marketed as so its the only bench mark you have, no car manufacturer quotes wheel power so its always a little hard to judge just how big an improvement is made, but when Emma's Dad takes delivery of his new 500 1.4 16V we will be giving it a run on r/r to see what they actually make on this r/r as a bench mark. His present car an Ibiza Cupra R quoted from VAG as 180PS made 178bhp which is pretty much on the money given the slight differance from PS to bhp, so know rollers are pretty true, just be good to see how true Fiat are.

Interesing to see the results here, and I admit to being somewhat surprised that the 1.4 16v n/a did so well in comparison to the turbo 'Centos.

What would be a really good comparsion would be to find out the 40 - 70mph times of the cars. Would the turbo Cinqs have an advantage even though the torque figures are similar? Or do the turbo Cinqs produce more torque lower down the rev range? :chin: This would show the difference in real world driving situations.

P.S. Anyone got a 1.4 16v going cheap?

You can see from peak torque figures that I put that the turbos are making there there peak approx 1500rpm lower in rev range, but in real world 40-70 the Sei is still the quickest as you would be in a lower gear at those speeds to get maximum performance.

But in the interest of impartiality, if you were say sitting at 55 and wanted to just go a little faster say 70 and didn't want to change gear ie you were on the phone, eating cream eggs, doing your make up, light a cigarette (is that not the sort of folk who try to overtake without changing gear lol ), then the turbos with the added torque will pull away.

My Turbo Cinq has about the same BHP as Emma's sei but a bit more torque and i can honestly say you just would not believe what the car actually feels like in the real world, the acceleration is jaw droppingly fast.

Never mind putting times to it what i can say for a fact is that no matter how crap you feel planting your right foot at any speed in any gear is guranteed to bring a smile to your face

BTW would have been nice to come along, maybe next time

allanhelen said:

BTW would have been nice to come along, maybe next time

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We may be able to sort something out when blue goes on the rollers to be mapped -- it'd be interesting to see a hi boost Cinq with an aftermarket ECU against one with the mf2. Mind you (classic racer excuse no.34) my pistons will have barely bedded in by then.

Yes the more the merrier, we were expecting to be there a lot longer TBH, but there was little to do in way of mapping, apart from the Sei being that little bit rich and Jamie's being "dangerously" lean top end and a wee adjustment to a few things on Alex's car, it was a quick day, if we had known that would have invited more.

So next time we will play numbers game and have more if a few only want a power run which doesn't take too long at all. Though i would expect that with your car John it may a whole lot longer to get it all set up in terms of mapping

Would also be interesting to see if the 40mm TB has made a differance power wise as well on Emma's old car, I can sense a trip number 2 1320 coming soon

Your on....... but give me a bit of notice as i'm always busy.

I'm interested to see what difference the bigger TB has made if any in numbers terms, it certainly feels quicker. (and a double check on the fueling too)

I'd like to see what difference a real aftermarket ECU makes too (ie not a diy megasquirt) as this is on the might do list if there is enough gain to justify it and if I have the cash available (but as i'm mid negotiation on a Lotus Esprit V8 at the moment i might have to sell a kidney, curse this mid-life crisis)

just got to keep my Cinq in one piece longer than you managed to now John

i do want my ECU professionally setup, but know it's going to cost a few quid. if i could just get the money together to finish of the turbo fab then i wouldn't mind having it mapped then. but considering it would need drastically different mapping to how it is atm, i can't justify spending moolah on the n/a mapping

allanhelen said:

I'd like to see what difference a real aftermarket ECU makes too (ie not a diy megasquirt)

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oi, cheeky bugger