Tuning Water/Meth Injection

slickkon · May 25, 2017

Hi all,

I was toying around with the idea of installing a DIY water/meth kit. Just a home project.

Was wondering if anyone has a water/meth system installed on their 150 T-jet?

Im looking for ideas for mounting (reserviour), wiring (switches, pump, relay), last but not least plumbing (more of recommended routes to run the pipes/hoses.)

To start off, i have already purchased the items described in this website. I was looking to mount the tank in the boot, anyone have any suggestions on how to go about running the pipes and power lines?

Kinds regards,

aurick86 · May 26, 2017

I was researching this for a few days now...

What website did you mention?

What size nozzle are you going to use?
What pressure? Which pump? etc etc

slickkon · May 26, 2017

aurick86 said:
I was researching this for a few days now...

What website did you mention?

What size nozzle are you going to use?
What pressure? Which pump? etc etc

Hi Aurick,

Sorry forgot to paste website:

http://www.turbomirage.com/water-alcohol-injection-parts-list.html

Most of the items i bought are similar to the list. Differences are items i cant get here locally

Pump 80PSI
Nozzle 250CC @ 5 bar.

Any experience in removing the interior floor lining by the door sill? May want to run the pipe along the sides, tucked under the floor lining if possible.

aurick86 · May 27, 2017

I think you should run it underneath the car, along the fuel pipe.
Much safer, so you do not run the risk of bursting a pipe running 60-80psi.
The fuel pipe route is much safer...never heard of a fuel pipe being hit/cracked... just zip-tie your pipe to the fuel pipe.

How much power are you running ?
What is the goal with the water-meth system?
Here are 2 video's from the guy from turbomirage:

portland_bill · May 27, 2017

Interesting to read the website link from post #3 . He mentions the water injection cooling the intake charge, which makes it more dense, so effectively you can get more oxygen into the cylinder, less of course the volume of water or water/alcohol mixture.

From my motor vehicle theory at college, back in the dark ages of 1972, when water injection was a goal, but not yet realised, the water also acts as a power boost. When the fuel burns, the water turns into superheated steam, creating a big pressure increase, helping push the piston down the bore. This is why your car appears more powerful on a damp day. The moisture in the air does what this water injection does.

The goal is to add just the right amount of water to achieve the gain. Too much and you drown the burn, so get a lot less. It is imperative that the water is a very fine mist, as any measurable droplets will just put the fire out. So don't think a bigger water jet will get more power. It needs to be matched to the engine size.

A possible downside will be that the water injected tries to wash the oil off the bores, especially when mixed with alcohol. Always a good idea to let the engine calm down gently. After a run where the water has been injected, drive gently, below the water injection threshold for a few minutes, to ensure the bores are properly lubricated. Should be enough to reduce the wear.

slickkon · May 28, 2017

Hi Aurick,

Thanks for the suggestion, sounds great! how do i go about routing the pipe to access into the boot?

I only dynoed about 198bhp now, i would say for now, my goals would be conservertive, i would be happy with an added 10bhp and 15ftlb with more aggressive timing and boost. Will have to see how this system performs before going any further.

Regards

slickkon · May 28, 2017

portland_bill said:
Interesting to read the website link from post #3 . He mentions the water injection cooling the intake charge, which makes it more dense, so effectively you can get more oxygen into the cylinder, less of course the volume of water or water/alcohol mixture.

From my motor vehicle theory at college, back in the dark ages of 1972, when water injection was a goal, but not yet realised, the water also acts as a power boost. When the fuel burns, the water turns into superheated steam, creating a big pressure increase, helping push the piston down the bore. This is why your car appears more powerful on a damp day. The moisture in the air does what this water injection does.

The goal is to add just the right amount of water to achieve the gain. Too much and you drown the burn, so get a lot less. It is imperative that the water is a very fine mist, as any measurable droplets will just put the fire out. So don't think a bigger water jet will get more power. It needs to be matched to the engine size.

A possible downside will be that the water injected tries to wash the oil off the bores, especially when mixed with alcohol. Always a good idea to let the engine calm down gently. After a run where the water has been injected, drive gently, below the water injection threshold for a few minutes, to ensure the bores are properly lubricated. Should be enough to reduce the wear.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the insight! Totally agree with your points, i believe thats key with WMI and as with most things, less is more?

My plan would be to get it to start injecting at 1bar of boost only, so only when putting the car thru its paces does it receive the extra dose of cooling.

It being a DIY kit, im a little weary as its not 'precision engineered', especially the nozzle. 250cc is lowest i can find for now, so im constantly on the lookout whilst the kit is being put together and installed.

I did however do a dry run (lol), the mist seems fine enough for me, fine enough that droplets sit on the fine hair on my arms, if that makes sense.. non scientific i know but its best i can do for now.

I guess ultimately, if really need be, i would purchase a specialist nozzle from one of the big name companies, devils own, cooling mist or AEM. We'll see how it goes..

Regards

aurick86 · May 28, 2017

About routing the pipe into the boot, there are a few pre-drilled holes towards the bumper, i used one for parking sensors.
But in this case.. i would just look for a good rubber grommet that will fit the hose/line you will be using then drill a hole to match that grommet.

Do you have a control unit? or are you just planing on using a pressure switch?
I think you need some king of control unit because at higher RPM boost drops off on mine it goes under 1 bar around 0.8 (and i am pretty close in power~194).
You could just set the pressure switch to a lower pressure, but that will mean it will come on even at 2000 rpm.
So I am saying you need something to check rpm in addition to pressure.
You want the WMI to come on at about 3.5- 4k rpm.

Bout the nozzle you said it's 250cc.. so is that measured per hour or per minute? At what pressure?
If it is per minute then it would equal to about 3.9 gph that would be WAY TOO BIG for a 1.4 at ~200bhp.

Devilsown has a nozzle calculator (On the left side panel, scroll down)

For 18 psi -1.7gph
For 20 psi -1.95gph.

aurick86 · May 28, 2017

While discussing this i was also thinking that a intercooler spray system (a spray of water on the outside of the intercooler to help dissipate heat) would be a nice way to improve performance on hot days.
I was thinking of running one of these

And 2 or 3 of these

I would like to set it up based on temperature switch.. as well as based on water level in tank, so the pump does not burn up .. so a level switch v1 or v2

But i feel there should also be something like a way to make it come on for 4-5 seconds then turn it off for 10-20 seconds.. then on again if needed... trying to avoid Arduino to make it more of a bold-on.
But the arduino could do all the things, level control, temperature activation and time-out....even a display with the intercooler temperature, pump activation message, water level warning.

Also arduino could be used for RMP calculation, either with a seperate hall-effect sensor, or reading one of the stock ones, or even reading one of the spark plug activation signals

slickkon · May 29, 2017

aurick86 said:
About routing the pipe into the boot, there are a few pre-drilled holes towards the bumper, i used one for parking sensors.
But in this case.. i would just look for a good rubber grommet that will fit the hose/line you will be using then drill a hole to match that grommet.

Do you have a control unit? or are you just planing on using a pressure switch?
I think you need some king of control unit because at higher RPM boost drops off on mine it goes under 1 bar around 0.8 (and i am pretty close in power~194).
You could just set the pressure switch to a lower pressure, but that will mean it will come on even at 2000 rpm.
So I am saying you need something to check rpm in addition to pressure.
You want the WMI to come on at about 3.5- 4k rpm.

Bout the nozzle you said it's 250cc.. so is that measured per hour or per minute? At what pressure?
If it is per minute then it would equal to about 3.9 gph that would be WAY TOO BIG for a 1.4 at ~200bhp.

Devilsown has a nozzle calculator (On the left side panel, scroll down)

For 18 psi -1.7gph
For 20 psi -1.95gph.

Thanks Aurick,

Will take note of the nozzle size.

My boost holds to 1.1-1.2bar at redline, so shouldnt be a problem.

There doesnt seem to be an exact science to the required water meth injection quantity, or at least i couldnt find a 'formula'. I guess i'll get a couple more nozzles and experiment and see how it goes.

Quick update, i managed to route the plumbing thru the roof liner, makes for nice and neat solution. All thats left is drilling a access hole in the firewall and actually mounting the nozzle on the charge pipe after the MAP sensor.

aurick86 · May 29, 2017

A quick update about the intercooler spray idea:
So i was driving yesterday... on the highway so had the opportunity to have a look on MES for engine coolant temp, and for air intake temp
So after driving about 15 km the IAT were about 55 degree C at abmbient temp 30-32 C.

I stooped the car, IAT rised anoter 2-3 degrees.
I used a bottle to splash some water on the intercooler... 5-10 seconds later the intake temps were 5-6C lower ~50-51 C.
After i got the car moving the temps dropped another ~5 degrees .. to about 44-46 C

So i would say that it is a good way of getting at least 10 degrees C lower intake temps.

I would still like the added steam cleaning and knock resistance of water meth injection.. so I am still very interested in that.

I wonder how much that will drop intake temps. And EGT should also be lower.. so lower chance of cracking the exhaust manifold.

slickkon · May 29, 2017

aurick86 said:
While discussing this i was also thinking that a intercooler spray system (a spray of water on the outside of the intercooler to help dissipate heat) would be a nice way to improve performance on hot days.
I was thinking of running one of these

And 2 or 3 of these

I would like to set it up based on temperature switch.. as well as based on water level in tank, so the pump does not burn up .. so a level switch v1 or v2

But i feel there should also be something like a way to make it come on for 4-5 seconds then turn it off for 10-20 seconds.. then on again if needed... trying to avoid Arduino to make it more of a bold-on.
But the arduino could do all the things, level control, temperature activation and time-out....even a display with the intercooler temperature, pump activation message, water level warning.

Also arduino could be used for RMP calculation, either with a seperate hall-effect sensor, or reading one of the stock ones, or even reading one of the spark plug activation signals

Thats some pretty advanced stuff youre thinking of implementing. I dont know much about using arduino and all, but if it were me, i would keep it as simple as possible, i guess automation is always a nice thing to have.

Probably better off installing a secondary pump connected to the windshield washer and activate it manually. Maybe a digital temperature probe with display in the cabin would suffice? Whats the weather like there anyway? Here in the tropics its a constant 37deg in the day and i must say i havent experienced a massive loss in performance.

aurick86 · May 29, 2017

slickkon said:
Thanks Aurick,

Quick update, i managed to route the plumbing thru the roof liner, makes for nice and neat solution. All thats left is drilling a access hole in the firewall and actually mounting the nozzle on the charge pipe after the MAP sensor.

That is not the MAP sensor.. it is the boost sensor.
It is basically the same thing as the map sensor but it is used in a different way and also doe not include the intake temperature sensor.

Any reason to put it after it?
Wouldn't puting it closer to the intercooler give the water more time to evaporate=>colder intake temps?
But i have no idea how that will affect detonation, EGT.

slickkon · May 29, 2017

aurick86 said:
That is not the MAP sensor.. it is the boost sensor.
It is basically the same thing as the map sensor but it is used in a different way and also doe not include the intake temperature sensor.

Any reason to put it after it?
Wouldn't puting it closer to the intercooler give the water more time to evaporate=>colder intake temps?
But i have no idea how that will affect detonation, EGT.

Hi Aurick,

What you said makes sense, thats what i thought at first too. But after some reading, apparently there is more to be gained the close the nozzle is to the manifold. Something about the injected liquids heating up too much if its too far away, thus losing some of its detonation supression qualities.

aurick86 · May 29, 2017

For some time, i have been living in Bratislava, but this is the first summer here, i do think the temperatures here are not as extreme as in Romania, there it is quite normal to see -25 °C in winter, and 45°C in summer.

With 1.1 bar at red line.. you should be making a lot more power... that will definitely change when you add some water.

slickkon · May 29, 2017

Well, thats what the dyno said 198bhp on Ron100 petrol.

'that will definitely change when you add some water.' Change as in power loss or gain? Im hoping the latter ahaha!

I'm frankly more worried about detonation, this whole project is actually to try to avoid det. Pretty happy with the power im getting now, in fact i think its already pushing the limits on stock components already, handling and brakes are pretty crap right now.

Edit: i found some 'fogging' nozzles, these produce atomised droplets even smaller than the nozzles mentioned in the website, you think these would be a even better option?

Kind regards

portland_bill · May 29, 2017

slickkon said:
Edit: i found some 'fogging' nozzles, these produce atomised droplets even smaller than the nozzles mentioned in the website, you think these would be a even better option?

Kind regards

The finer the mist the more efficient it will be. Larger droplets are more likely to reduce power, as they will need some of the heat produced to vaporise them before they'll turn into steam and give the power boost. If the pressure increase comes too late, piston will already be too far down the bore to really benefit.

With regard to nozzle size, better to start small and work up. Injecting too much will act like a fire extinguisher.

I'm a bit concerned about routing the feed pipe through the headlining. Having flammable fluid, under pressure, above your head seems a risk you don't need. As recommended earlier, best place is under the car. That's why the fuel pipe is there.

aurick86 · May 29, 2017

slickkon said:
'that will definitely change when you add some water.' Change as in power loss or gain? Im hoping the latter ahaha!

Well temperatures are going to drop... so you will have some more power from that alone.... now if you were tuning for the increased knock protection.. you could probably get even more power.
I will not re-tune to get more power my 190 is enough.
If i make it safer and happier that's even better.

Post some links so we can see those nozzles as well.

The problem with nozzles and atomizing is that the work well when they are at full pressure, but while the pressure is rising or dropping they push out large drops of water.

That is the reason they also install a water solenoid.. when the solenoid opens the pump has already reached it's max pressure.
- the pump should start 1-2 seconds before the solenoid;
- the solenoid should be as close to the nozzle as possible.
I also saw they prefer using more smaller nozzles, than a big one.

There might also be some water pooling on the sides of the intake pipe... i would like those big droplets to slide down the pipe to the intercooler.. they will soon evaporate... that is one of the reasons i would like the nozzle before the boost sensor.

slickkon · May 29, 2017

aurick86 said:
Well temperatures are going to drop... so you will have some more power from that alone.... now if you were tuning for the increased knock protection.. you could probably get even more power.
I will not re-tune to get more power my 190 is enough.
If i make it safer and happier that's even better.

Post some links so we can see those nozzles as well.

The problem with nozzles and atomizing is that the work well when they are at full pressure, but while the pressure is rising or dropping they push out large drops of water.

That is the reason they also install a water solenoid.. when the solenoid opens the pump has already reached it's max pressure.
- the pump should start 1-2 seconds before the solenoid;
- the solenoid should be as close to the nozzle as possible.
I also saw they prefer using more smaller nozzles, than a big one.

There might also be some water pooling on the sides of the intake pipe... i would like those big droplets to slide down the pipe to the intercooler.. they will soon evaporate... that is one of the reasons i would like the nozzle before the boost sensor.

Hi Aurick,

Fogging nozzle : https://www.mcmaster.com/#spray-tips/=17u53xf

Misting nozzle (full cone):https://www.mcmaster.com/#spray-tips/=17u54nq

Misting nozzle (flat spray) : https://www.mcmaster.com/#spray-tips/=17u54zb this is another interesting nozzle, maybe a flat spray would be more effective? I think of it as a single 'denser' curtain. Might be worth exploring.

On a seperate note ive sent you a PM.

aurick86 · May 31, 2017

About those nozzles.
I have no doubt they will do the job.
But i would be very scared that in time with the engine vibrations those nozzles could come unscrewed and eaten by the engine.
Because those nozzles would be screwed from inside the pipe.

That is why i like the Devilsown(and others) nozzle design.

Tuning Water/Meth Injection

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