HellfireZA
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Anyone used one of these on their bravo, converted to chain? Would be hugely interested if you have or if its possible!
Tuning Timing Chain!
- Thread starter HellfireZA
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Tuning Timing Chain!
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HellfireZA
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Quiter, better performance and I love chain drives 
So what you are saying is its not possible?
So what you are saying is its not possible?A chain drive is guaranteed to be WAY noisier than a belt - that's one of the reason they use belts in the first place. Better performance? It's a cam being driven... how it's driven doesn't matter one bit, performance wise.
And - no, it can't be done. The engine would need to be of a fundamentally different design from the ground up.
And - no, it can't be done. The engine would need to be of a fundamentally different design from the ground up.
it would destroy fuel efficiency aswell wouldn't it?
As already said, pointless, timing chain is old technology
cardinalbiggles
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Any increase in force to drive the chain over a belt will lead to reduced fuel economy.
This thread is ridiculous btw, its like arguing over changing a diesel engine to run on petrol, its just mechanically not how things operate.
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My car has a timing chain and is probably as efficient or more efficient than a 1.2 - 1.4 cambelt driven engine of the same age.
My car is a 1.6 from 2008, has 16 valves with VVT, no turbo etc and returns a genuine mixed driving economy of 42MPG. It is no noisier than a belt driven cam engine.
The only reason to have a rubber band driving the cam or cams is that it is cheaper to build a car that way.
Answering the OP's Post... No... I've not heard of it being done and I dont see the value of contemplating it in a cost versus effort versus benefit basis.
My car is a 1.6 from 2008, has 16 valves with VVT, no turbo etc and returns a genuine mixed driving economy of 42MPG. It is no noisier than a belt driven cam engine.
The only reason to have a rubber band driving the cam or cams is that it is cheaper to build a car that way.
Answering the OP's Post... No... I've not heard of it being done and I dont see the value of contemplating it in a cost versus effort versus benefit basis.
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cheaper, less mechanical resistance, greater MTBF's, quieter, allows for higher engine speeds to be run -think you'll struggle to find a modern petrol engine that has been designed in the past couple of years that has chain driven cam timing.
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Cheaper - Yes
Less mechanical resistance? - Nah
Greater MTBF? - Nah... chains last the life of the car...
Quieter... maybe... possibly... but mine is silent.
Allows for higher engine speeds? ORLY? Motorbikes run up to and beyond 10k RPM and are in the main chain driven...
Its cost...
chains dont last as long as a car, especially on these modern engines that run a dry chain
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HellfireZA
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Mmm from what I've herd and slightly read up on chains are better, so most of the above is odd to me.
When I upgrade to a new car in a few years time, I have a few possibilites already in mind of which 3 are an Audi S4/RS4 which uses timing chains, which is how it actually gets a supercharger kinda sound with those 40V, 350z/370z which also both use timing chains.
So how I see it performance engines you timing chains. Therefor in my eyes they are better. Also I know fact that if you use chains... you never experiance that expensive services with cambelt change since the chain practically lasts forever unless some unexpected mechanical falure.
When I upgrade to a new car in a few years time, I have a few possibilites already in mind of which 3 are an Audi S4/RS4 which uses timing chains, which is how it actually gets a supercharger kinda sound with those 40V, 350z/370z which also both use timing chains.
So how I see it performance engines you timing chains. Therefor in my eyes they are better. Also I know fact that if you use chains... you never experiance that expensive services with cambelt change since the chain practically lasts forever unless some unexpected mechanical falure.
Low performance engine?
Well you read it HERE FIRST
No timing chain required.
Fiat already have MultiAir where the inlet valves are electro-hydraulicaly driven.
What we now need is a "common rail" or simiar based valve actuation just like is used for the fuel injection. This I believe will appear over the next few years as technology advances. Fiat have cracked with MultiAir how to rapidly and progressively move high spring resistance medium mass inlet valves at high rates/rpm. The first step being to base and adapted on the existing exhaust mechanically driven camshaft setup where power and ready "drive" is available.
MultiAir is bloody neat IMHO and the fact that Fiat have done it will drive all the other manufacturers to pursue similar designs.
When you understand the complexities of a modern 4 stroke petrol or diesel engine then often the simlicity and reliability of the two stroke / model aero engine really strike you as being the better overall solution.......... (views on a post card to ........ (polution,what polution ..........
No timing chain required.
Fiat already have MultiAir where the inlet valves are electro-hydraulicaly driven.
What we now need is a "common rail" or simiar based valve actuation just like is used for the fuel injection. This I believe will appear over the next few years as technology advances. Fiat have cracked with MultiAir how to rapidly and progressively move high spring resistance medium mass inlet valves at high rates/rpm. The first step being to base and adapted on the existing exhaust mechanically driven camshaft setup where power and ready "drive" is available.
MultiAir is bloody neat IMHO and the fact that Fiat have done it will drive all the other manufacturers to pursue similar designs.
When you understand the complexities of a modern 4 stroke petrol or diesel engine then often the simlicity and reliability of the two stroke / model aero engine really strike you as being the better overall solution.......... (views on a post card to ........ (polution,what polution ..........
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chains running in oil break less often than a belt not changed when it should, but they do break but you get warning signs from a rattly chain than you can hear in old cars, you wont hear it in a modern car though too much sound proofing.
them cars also had seperate drive for water pump too.
dry chains are as bad as belts for snapping and give no warning.
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HellfireZA
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Aren't the chains in the Zs and the Audis Dry chains though?
Am loving this thread, why would you bother to go to the hassle of swapping to a chain when the cost of doing so would fund probably 2-3 cam belt changes?
As pointed out performance cars still use belts the likes of Ferrari in the 360, F355 and I don't doubt numerous others, the sirera/escort cosworth always ran on belts and are heavily tuned without the need to swap to a chain.
Saab 4 cylinder engine uses a chain but the more powerful v6 Saab engine used belts. As did the ford V6 in the mondeo yet when ford redesigned the zetec into the duratec they dropped the belt for a chain?
My 1.3 multijet uses a chain and my 1.9multijet a belt it's just how the engines where originally designed for maintenance, longevity, build costs, reliability etc etc, if you've ever sat in on an engineers meeting apart from being stupidly dull they tend to go with what the head engineer wants not so much everything else mentioned.
I believe with the 1.3multijet space was an issue as it was to be used in the panda and a chain doesn't need as much space in terms of thickness.
Chains can be a bit noisier but not so much that you would notice, unless it was really knackered. Cars ran on chains for hundreds of thousands of miles without ever having a problem for many years before cambelts came along (have never heard of a rover v8 chain breaking, or any other cars from that sort of era)
As for this comment
The multiair is completely reliant on having a cam shaft (powered off a belt or chain) at the moment the technology is not good enough or reliable enough to do away with the trusty cam and I can't see it being any time soon an electromechanical solenoid is powerful enough or quick enough to activate 100+ times a second and If they did its working life would be a matter of days.
The only way to ditch the belt or chain Is to direct drive the cam off the crank shaft. Which causes problems with overhead cam arrangements. And would probably still be impractical for the multiair
As pointed out performance cars still use belts the likes of Ferrari in the 360, F355 and I don't doubt numerous others, the sirera/escort cosworth always ran on belts and are heavily tuned without the need to swap to a chain.
Saab 4 cylinder engine uses a chain but the more powerful v6 Saab engine used belts. As did the ford V6 in the mondeo yet when ford redesigned the zetec into the duratec they dropped the belt for a chain?
My 1.3 multijet uses a chain and my 1.9multijet a belt it's just how the engines where originally designed for maintenance, longevity, build costs, reliability etc etc, if you've ever sat in on an engineers meeting apart from being stupidly dull they tend to go with what the head engineer wants not so much everything else mentioned.
I believe with the 1.3multijet space was an issue as it was to be used in the panda and a chain doesn't need as much space in terms of thickness.
Chains can be a bit noisier but not so much that you would notice, unless it was really knackered. Cars ran on chains for hundreds of thousands of miles without ever having a problem for many years before cambelts came along (have never heard of a rover v8 chain breaking, or any other cars from that sort of era)
As for this comment
The multiair is completely reliant on having a cam shaft (powered off a belt or chain) at the moment the technology is not good enough or reliable enough to do away with the trusty cam and I can't see it being any time soon an electromechanical solenoid is powerful enough or quick enough to activate 100+ times a second and If they did its working life would be a matter of days.
The only way to ditch the belt or chain Is to direct drive the cam off the crank shaft. Which causes problems with overhead cam arrangements. And would probably still be impractical for the multiair
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HellfireZA
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I'm loving this knowledge! I never actually said performance cars don't use belts so I don't know where that came from, just seems like far more use chains since they are stronger. All of those above cars mentioned, like 355, 360, saabs, rovers.... are all old cars and arn't even actually made anymore though.
The Lamborghini Aventador, Murcielago, Gallardo uses chains, almost all Masseratis use chains. I see the 458 actually doesn't, most ferraris dont seem to(odd ones out). The Phantom, all Koenigsegg cars, Veyron, SSC Ultimate Aero all of them use timing chains. Those are the fastest cars in the world so when I look at it... chains are used far more often in high performance/supercars, they obviously have far greater potential than belts when it comes to performance. If belts were better why would they not all just use belts, chains aren't lighter after all?
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Koenigsegg+CCR+timing+chain
The Lamborghini Aventador, Murcielago, Gallardo uses chains, almost all Masseratis use chains. I see the 458 actually doesn't, most ferraris dont seem to(odd ones out). The Phantom, all Koenigsegg cars, Veyron, SSC Ultimate Aero all of them use timing chains. Those are the fastest cars in the world so when I look at it... chains are used far more often in high performance/supercars, they obviously have far greater potential than belts when it comes to performance. If belts were better why would they not all just use belts, chains aren't lighter after all?
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Koenigsegg+CCR+timing+chain
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It came from this quote
Not all performance engines use chains is the point, cambelt change on an V8 Ferrari is about £1200, you can argue the fact that chains are better over belts all you want I'm not going to disagree with you, for strength and reliability they are however they are also a lot more expensive and converting your car to a chain drive is economically stupid!
Not all performance engines use chains is the point, cambelt change on an V8 Ferrari is about £1200, you can argue the fact that chains are better over belts all you want I'm not going to disagree with you, for strength and reliability they are however they are also a lot more expensive and converting your car to a chain drive is economically stupid!