Hi All, I have just join FF, i haver recently purchased a non-runner 155 20v HGT due to the Cam Sensor failure.

I have read the following link and think i will be able to do this job myself.

fiatforum.com/bravo-brava-marea-guides/43472-photo-how-marea-20v-cam-belt-change.html

My question, is it possible to move the top pulleys forward enough to get the sensor our and replace with a new one hence i dont need to remove the whole belt??? i had a practice on a 20VT Coupe in a scrap yard over the weekend and it looks possible has any one done it???

Anyhow here it a pic of "LilRed"



Note the white wheels i have put on and have a set of HGT standard wheel aswell.

BravoKarl

na, no chance.

i had a look when i was rebuilding a 20vT head and it wont work, remove and replace all the belts and tensioners aswell as the waterpump whule your there.

its common that the cam phase sensors fail after the belt has been changed so its often recommended its replaced at the same time.

are you sure its the phase sensor? its alot of work if its a mis-diagnoses.

the TDC is mounted on the back of the engine by the gearbox and is a much more common problem.

Ry

Hi Bulldog,

I spoke with the mech at the garage i use for the S40 i have and took a TDC that i pulled off a scrappy 20V with me he said one way of testing is seeing if the TDC sticks to anything metal "it did" not sure on the viability of this statement but i also took the one off my Lil'Red (LittleRed) this also stuck to metal, the car does start from time to time i had it running over the weekend and it would start even with the Injector light, this when off for a period of time and i took the car for a very short drive up and down the street by which time the Injector light came back on and would not start again until this morning it started a few time all with the light on but now wont start again........

Im more than happy to take the belts off but it has had a recent cambelt and tensioner change so would it really need doing again....

BravoKarl said:

Hi Bulldog,

I spoke with the mech at the garage i use for the S40 i have and took a TDC that i pulled off a scrappy 20V with me he said one way of testing is seeing if the TDC sticks to anything metal "it did" not sure on the viability of this statement but i also took the one off my Lil'Red (LittleRed) this also stuck to metal, the car does start from time to time i had it running over the weekend and it would start even with the Injector light, this when off for a period of time and i took the car for a very short drive up and down the street by which time the Injector light came back on and would not start again until this morning it started a few time all with the light on but now wont start again........

Im more than happy to take the belts off but it has had a recent cambelt and tensioner change so would it really need doing again....

Click to expand...

your choice but i wouldnt risk it to save a few quid. its about £150 all in for the parts you'll need to do the job properly.

the intermittant starting you describe is exactly as expected from the Cam Phase failure, the sensor is only used for the inital spark which is why it works fine once its running.

i think what your mechanic told you about the TDC sensor is BS, you can mesure the resistance to test them between pins 1 & 3 should be 700ohms IIRC.

Ry

Ahhhhhh now let me copy something from Boo and you tell me if this is the TDC or Cam Phase sensor....one min.......

The original Owner said this in a post on Boo...

"Can't get the car to Fiat as it won't start!!!! So will have to hope the guy I contact tomorrow knows what he is doing. He did say he knew Fiat's so lets hope he does!

Right, did a self diagnostic and got error code C1.

Anyone know what that means?"

Also

"Car runs beautifully, just won't start at the moment! The top dead center sensor should read 760 ohms but is reading 5.8 meg, so we guess it needs replacing. "

Does that help you to make a judgement call on TDC or Phase sensor

C1? if memory serves, it means the external temp sensor in faulty for the climate control.

prehaps more importantly, the Bravo doesnt have a self diagnostic for the engine management

check this thread if you want to check it out:

https://www.fiatforum.com/bravo-brava/71974-error-code-where-mileage-displayed.html

i guess when he says meg he means megaohms, or 580ohms, which isnt best but i've seen them vary and most of mine were more like 6xx ohms.

if you have a multimeter test out the one you removed from the car and the one you got from the scrapyard, i expect you will find they are both the same-ish.

my money is still on the phase sensor which unfortunately you cannot test easily.

when the TDC sensor fails they tend to cause the car to stall and fail to restart when hot or the car wont start atall. your intermittant starting and running okay once started convince me it is the Phase and not TDC.

if your still feeling unsure you can buy a new TDC for about £30, but i really dont believe it will fix it.

Ry

T'was my thought that i would have to go down the Cam\Phase sensor route... I think i'm capable of doing this i just though it may be possible to manoeuvre the sensor out from behind the pulley without fully removing the pulleys and belt...

As the cambelt was changed 20k ago i hope to just loosen the tensioner to create some slack and then remove the left pulley first then the right if looking at them face on...threading the new sensor cable through and then bolting in position.

Should i lock the pulleys in place to loosed them, or can the 18mm bolt on the right pulley be loosened in any other way???

deffinately use cam lockers.

you also need to mark up the position of the inlet cam pully as it is adjustable, mark from the center out, over the metal plate and onto the cam.

dont just rely on the cam lockers to hold it while you undo the 4 ribe bolts, you need to hold it steady somehow, they arnt usually that tight so may be able to do it by hand.

i have a feeling your going to find the cable for the sensor runs behind the plastic cowling, and you may find it hard to get access to the bolts.

I found these on fleebay..

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FIAT-BRAVO-BR..._CarParts_SM&hash=item359a438930#ht_565wt_911

Would that be the only thing i can use, or is there anything else i can adapt to use...

When you say Inlet cam, im not quite sure where this is, from the guide link at the start of this thread i thought that so long as i get the timing on the crank lined up after loosening the 6 bolts then remove the aux belts, then mark the two cam pulleys from the centre out over the the plate i should be good to release the tensioner and remove the belt, tipex should do the job for marking.....

Also what i meant to ask was is it possible to loosen the cambelt tensioner without having to take the aux belt pulley off??

yes, those are the cam lockers you will need.

i've just been looking though my photos for you and i've noticed i've given you some bad advice, the Phase Sensor is on the exhaust cam, not the inlet like i previously said.

hard to see on this picture but you can just about make it out on the right hand cam pully.



unfortunately, this means its going to be more difficult to replace, they bolt holding the exhaust cam pully on is very tight, its easier to take the camshaft out.

you will need to unscrew the bolts holding the sensor in place and then begin undoing the bolts holding the camshaft in place being careful not to damage the inner ring on the cam pully, undo the camshaft bolts from the outside working inwards and only at max 1 rotation each time, this will release the pressure nicely and prevent any damage to the bolt threads.

the aux belt needs to come off to replace the cambelt, but i get the impression you arnt going to do that so you may get away with it, i'm not entirely sure.

you are going to need to slacken off the cambelt and get it out of the way of the cam pully which will be quite a task as there is no room to move in there, then remove the camshaft, replace sensor and refit shaft.

personally i think your making it hard on yourself trying to do half a job, i know i could do it in a weekend properly without breaking a sweat but i know it can be challenging when you doing know exactly how.

my best advise would be to read the cambelt replacement guides on here and on FCCUK and try to take in what you can so you are prepared.

Cheers,
Ry

Hi Ry,

Thanks for your most recent reply, today i started to work on Lil`Red using the guide in the start of my thread, I have taken all plastic covers off from the wheel arch and have now released the 3 blots that hold the engine mount in place there is one bolt that runs horizontal through the bush i guess i will need to remove this in order to remove the mount completely problem is it wont budge i have loosened the 19mm Nut and bolt but can not get it to come out... Do you have any recommendations. I have also remove the top drivers side engine mont for added movment.

Currently i can not get to the torx bolts holding the cam belt cover on there's the bolt on the mid right and mid left that i cant reach, unless the only way is to adapt a tool to do this as per the guide....

Bump

I have taken all plastic covers off from the wheel arch and have now released the 3 blots that hold the engine mount in place there is one bolt that runs horizontal through the bush i guess i will need to remove this in order to remove the mount completely problem is it wont budge i have loosened the 19mm Nut and bolt but can not get it to come out... Do you have any recommendations. I have also remove the top drivers side engine mont for added movment.

Currently i can not get to the torx bolts holding the cam belt cover on there's the bolt on the mid right and mid left that i cant reach, unless the only way is to adapt a tool to do this as per the guide....

Can anyone help me with removing the lower o/s engine mount there is 3 bolts which are easily removed then 1 long horizontal 19mm nut and bolt which i can not get out it goes right through the rubber bush in the engine mount but it wont budge i need to remove the whole engine mount so that i can lift the engine 1"-2" further....

Please please help