Panda (Classic) 1242 Panda.

Liquid Knight · Jul 24, 2014

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1993-FIAT...tem4ad8f5f671&clk_rvr_id=670715210610&afsrc=1

Nice tidy looking conversion, plenty of time and money well spent but...

DVLA said:
Vehicle details
Vehicle make FIAT
Date of first registration 02 August 1993
Year of manufacture 1993
Cylinder capacity (cc) 999cc
CO2Emissions Not available
Fuel type PETROL
Tax class PRIVATE/LIGHT GOODS (PLG)
Export marker No
Vehicle status Not taxed
Vehicle colour TURQUOISE
Vehicle type approval Not available

Shame it's scrap for the sake of a bloody stamp!!! :bang:

Still 999cc on the log book. So the new M.O.T is invalid and without supporting donor documentation it'll need an engineers inspection and/or IVA.

homeward · Jul 24, 2014

This is chlblnz's. I knew I recognized it. Posts re emission problems start here.

Palio · Jul 24, 2014

homeward said:
This is chlblnz's. I knew I recognized it. Posts re emission problems start here.

I thought he was only selling because it couldn't be Mot'd - we resolved that and it's still being sold?!

No one seems to change the engine with the DVLA - I really despair as it's illegal to leave it as is. Not sure about the legality of the mot but I wouldn't expect an insurance payout any time soon, and Mr Plod will presumably crush it quite happily if they stopped you?

It's not worth much to anyone with an eye for doing things by the book. It can be sorted either by official means or creativity. Would I buy a conversion (which isn't running right), with the incorrect V5c and a failure to declare Sorn? Definitely not, as (for safety's sake) conversions need a pedantic eye for detail IMO. That's probably sounding very harsh, sorry. :shrug:

onemanmade · Jul 24, 2014

Palio said:
I thought he was only selling because it couldn't be Mot'd - we resolved that and it's still being sold?!

No one seems to change the engine with the DVLA - I really despair as it's illegal to leave it as is. Not sure about the legality of the mot but I wouldn't expect an insurance payout any time soon, and Mr Plod will presumably crush it quite happily if they stopped you?

It's not worth much to anyone with an eye for doing things by the book. It can be sorted either by official means or creativity. Would I buy a conversion (which isn't running right), with the incorrect V5c and a failure to declare Sorn? Definitely not, as (for safety's sake) conversions need a pedantic eye for detail IMO. That's probably sounding very harsh, sorry. :shrug:

Don't think it sounds harsh, I agree completely.

panda panda · Jul 24, 2014

a 1242 conversion is something I'll be building up to - Pity they set a 1200 quid price in the classifieds here of else I could have been tempted if Vern could fettle it

Liquid Knight · Jul 24, 2014

It's a real shame and I'm sure the car would be an absolute hoot with brakes and suspension to match. I'd be tempted to put in a sneaky bid if the car was legit'.

mrcinquecento · Jul 25, 2014

Liquid Knight said:
It's a real shame and I'm sure the car would be an absolute hoot with brakes and suspension to match. I'd be tempted to put in a sneaky bid if the car was legit'.

Easy done to make it legit, take it to a local garage for an inspection and get them to print out the details/engine number on a headed receipt, send off to the dvla with the correct paperwork. That's pretty much all that's required to make or road legal/mot'able,

Liquid Knight · Jul 25, 2014

That opens a potential Pandora's Box. I know a guy who bought an E36 touring with M3 Evo' running gear. He tried to legitamise the car to find the engine was from a stolen vehicle. He lost the lot, the Police took his car and he was arrested, interviewed and luckily de-arrested for receiving stolen goods and he lost the money he paid for the car because the guy he bought it from disappeared and the DVLA traced the car back to the previous registered keeper who sold it a year before it was sold on.

Not suggesting this is anything like the case here at all; but you can't be too careful.

mrcinquecento · Jul 25, 2014

Liquid Knight said:
That opens a potential Pandora's Box. I know a guy who bought an E36 touring with M3 Evo' running gear. He tried to legitamise the car to find the engine was from a stolen vehicle. He lost the lot, the Police took his car and he was arrested, interviewed and luckily de-arrested for receiving stolen goods and he lost the money he paid for the car because the guy he bought it from disappeared and the DVLA traced the car back to the previous registered keeper who sold it a year before it was sold on.

Not suggesting this is anything like the case here at all; but you can't be too careful.

I agree, however there's a slight difference in risk between an m3 (especially the later evo spec) and a punto sporting lump running on the panda's original box etc though, one is worth thousands of pounds in parts if broken, the other isn't really worth the effort for a thief to do so. There's a risk yes, but it's pretty low.

dragonwagon · Jul 25, 2014

Currently it's probably worth as much, if not more in parts than a dubious poorly running whole. I'd be happy to buy it cheaply for the shell which seems sound and tidy enough and bin the half baked conversion.

Palio · Jul 25, 2014

dragonwagon said:
Currently it's probably worth as much, if not more in parts than a dubious poorly running whole. I'd be happy to buy it cheaply for the shell which seems sound and tidy enough and bin the half baked conversion.

I nearly said something similar before - to me it's worth a Punto engine & a shell.

chlblnz · Jul 28, 2014

Well, this was a nice read. Thanks to all who have added their thoughts and opinions.

Couple of quick retorts to some misinformed peeps - Have spoken to both VOSA and the DVLA. The MOT is 'VALID'.

The DVLA want me to send the V5 in (amending section 7) and that's it. Any one can do it. I don't drive it other than to the MOT centre so I hadn't gotten round to it by the time I decided to sell it. And in the mean time, the car is not illegal. The police will not remove it from my possession and crush it! Where do you make this stuff up from? Also, the fact that the car is untaxed doesn't mean I spent less time rebuilding the bottom end. I admit, I've overlooked having the car SORN'd. My bad.

The insurance company have been very good. They know exactly what the car is and have fully insured it as a Panda 1242 16v. So again, someone has false information on here.

The car is running well just to clarify. It has a small leak in the exhaust system (I've stated it's homemade and could do with a professional job). The small oil and water leaks are apparent but very small quick fixes which I haven't got round to yet. It's not a bodge or "half baked job". If you don't want to buy it, that's fine. But please don't start creating horror stories and put people off before they've seen the car and spoken to the owner (me - it's not stolen).

Palio · Jul 28, 2014

chlblnz said:
Well, this was a nice read. Thanks to all who have added their thoughts and opinions.

Couple of quick retorts to some misinformed peeps - Have spoken to both VOSA and the DVLA. The MOT is 'VALID'.

The DVLA want me to send the V5 in (amending section 7) and that's it. Any one can do it. I don't drive it other than to the MOT centre so I hadn't gotten round to it by the time I decided to sell it. And in the mean time, the car is not illegal. The police will not remove it from my possession and crush it! Where do you make this stuff up from? Also, the fact that the car is untaxed doesn't mean I spent less time rebuilding the bottom end. I admit, I've overlooked having the car SORN'd. My bad.

The insurance company have been very good. They know exactly what the car is and have fully insured it as a Panda 1242 16v. So again, someone has false information on here.

The car is running well just to clarify. It has a small leak in the exhaust system (I've stated it's homemade and could do with a professional job). The small oil and water leaks are apparent but very small quick fixes which I haven't got round to yet. It's not a bodge or "half baked job". If you don't want to buy it, that's fine. But please don't start creating horror stories and put people off before they've seen the car and spoken to the owner (me - it's not stolen).

https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate/what-evidence-to-give

The DVLA have misinformed you & will reject an engine change without the requisite evidence - sorry it's not made up.

Unless the engine numbers match the DVLA records the police will not be happy that the car's legal and it is potentially subject to seizure as a "ringer" to investigate it further under their current powers I believe. Whether they would or not is subject to debate until the car is pulled.

Hope the sale goes well & that you don't get a fine for the Sorn ( http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...n/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_069243.pdf ) bit.

chlblnz · Jul 28, 2014

Palio said:
https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate/what-evidence-to-give

The DVLA have misinformed you & will reject an engine change without the requisite evidence - sorry it's not made up.

Unless the engine numbers match the DVLA records the police will not be happy that the car's legal and it is potentially subject to seizure as a "ringer" to investigate it further under their current powers I believe. Whether they would or not is subject to debate until the car is pulled.

Hope the sale goes well & that you don't get a fine for the Sorn ( http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...n/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_069243.pdf ) bit.

2. What evidence to give

You might need to give DVLA evidence or written confirmation of the changes to your vehicle.

They have stated that in this case the written confirmation is not required.

Palio · Jul 28, 2014

chlblnz said:
2. What evidence to give

You might need to give DVLA evidence or written confirmation of the changes to your vehicle.

They have stated that in this case the written confirmation is not required.

You've misread that - the engine change section states "you'll need to provide" one of the forms of evidence. Anyway, suit yourself, but if you search the online forums you'll see the problems others have been having. Just trying to help, having been through it myself. :shrug:

homeward · Jul 28, 2014

chlblnz said:
Well, this was a nice read. Thanks to all who have added their thoughts and opinions.

Palio said:
You've misread that - the engine change section states "you'll need to provide" one of the forms of evidence. Anyway, suit yourself, but if you search the online forums you'll see the problems others have been having. Just trying to help, having been through it myself. :shrug:

chlblnz -- I'm pretty sure no-one was having a go at you personally -- people were just discussing the pros and cons of buying such a modded car; and (in a spirit of looking after each other) making sure that any potential buyer would understand fully the ramifications of buying such a modified vehicle.

As Palio says, he's been through this (somtimes quite painfully): having a Punto 1.2 engine put in a Mk2 Panda -- and where both cars were known, and he (and VmanC -- who was doing the work) had all the requisite details... -- so he is more aware of the issues than anyone, at the moment (and he's generally very thorough about the things he does... -- even if he does, momentarily, forget just how many cars he actually owns...).

To be totally blunt: we don't know the car (well, I don't) particularly well -- and what is fresh in most minds are the problems you've been having with emissions (which I totally empathize with -- as I'm sure does Palio: although he does have a solution to MOT testing for such cars, as I'm sure you're aware...). People are therefore bound to be wary. It's not that we don't trust you, at all -- just that no-one wants to buy an unknown quantity that may come loaded with all sorts of problems.

chlblnz · Jul 28, 2014

Palio said:
You've misread that - the engine change section states "you'll need to provide" one of the forms of evidence. Anyway, suit yourself, but if you search the online forums you'll see the problems others have been having. Just trying to help, having been through it myself. :shrug:

I appreciate your help. Thank you.

I have just spoken to the DVLA and I haven't read it wrong.

It states that if they ask for written confirmation, then the required documents are as follows. If they ask for documentation after I have submitted my application, then I need to provide but the person at DVLA said it won't be necessary in this case. He went away and spoke to a number of his colleagues. I can't see why a DVLA chap on the phone would tell me false information. I can only go on what I'm told from the people who make the rules.

There doesn't seem to be much action on eBay anyway so if it doens't sell. I'll look at getting everything changed so it's up to standard.

chlblnz · Jul 28, 2014

homeward said:
@chlblnz -- I'm pretty sure no-one was having a go at you personally -- people were just discussing the pros and cons of buying such a modded car; and (in a spirit of looking after each other) making sure that any potential buyer would understand fully the ramifications of buying such a modified vehicle.

It's a little bit personal as a couple of people have questioned whether the work was up to scratch. Also the tag of Bristol Banger is really constructive.

The only way you'll know the car is if you speak to me and come and take a look.

Palio · Jul 28, 2014

chlblnz said:
I appreciate your help. Thank you.

I have just spoken to the DVLA and I haven't read it wrong.

It states that if they ask for written confirmation, then the required documents are as follows. If they ask for documentation after I have submitted my application, then I need to provide but the person at DVLA said it won't be necessary in this case. He went away and spoke to a number of his colleagues. I can't see why a DVLA chap on the phone would tell me false information. I can only go on what I'm told from the people who make the rules.

There doesn't seem to be much action on eBay anyway so if it doens't sell. I'll look at getting everything changed so it's up to standard.

The helpline often gives incorrect information, but maybe you'll be ok. Aside from pre 1973 cars (which have an exemption) they are insisting on evidence for all engine changes - just search for something like "engine change DVLA" and you'll see loads of forums where people have been struggling to get them to accept the evidence they've tried to supply.

For many people, having the correct paperwork is an indication of the attention to detail required in a safe conversion. I'm one of these people I'm afraid, although I realise it's not fail safe, and there will be exceptions to prove the rule.

I haven't yet seen a Panda conversion hit £1000 so lots of people are wary of the standard of work put into some of these. Having a full photographic record, and all the paperwork straight can only help.

I'll never see the money back on mine I'm sure (not that it will be sold), and there's an absolutely huge amount of money gone into it. The best thing is to get it running right and keep it for some fun - at least your work won't be in vain then. :idea:

mrcinquecento · Jul 29, 2014

chlblnz said:
2. What evidence to give

You might need to give DVLA evidence or written confirmation of the changes to your vehicle.

They have stated that in this case the written confirmation is not required.

You will likely find that when they get the v5 and amended details, they will write back and ask for evidence. Know quite a few folk with engine conversions that have been told by the DVLA to send them the v5 and that should be fine, everybody has then had a letter a month later asking that the car be inspected by an independent garage of your choosing with confirmation of the engine number on headed paper from said garage. (indeed this is also exactly what happened when i got my cinq and the last owner was in the process of updating the records with the dvla at time if sale, i got a letter about 2 months later telling me they wanted independent evidence of the engine change via a receipt or an inspection from a local garage)

From what i can tell, any time a capacity change from standard is done they require evidence, i would guess purely to make sure you aren't lying to avoid a higher tax rate!, Standard capacity to standard capacity, they don't seem bothered.

For what it's worth, if the car was nearer me, I'd be there to look over it and very interested in buying it. Hope it finds a good home if it sells

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