Technical The one and only Dualogic failure thread

[ahmett]

Fiat dealer checked my car today.

They told me that the leak was from the left driveshaft gearbox seals. Offered to fix it for 90 euros, I will go to indie to check their quote as I have to change rear brake pads anyway, they are squealing permanently now = )



At least it is not the Dualogic system for once, its the gearbox itself!

Ok got the gearbox leak fixed. It was the left seal connecting to the drive shaft. 40 EUR to fix at Bosch Car Service, nothing to do whatsoever with dialogic.

So far, so good!

 

[cotswoldtony]

Hi All, Dualogic AMT Update.
The Assisted Manual Transmission is controlled by solenoids to change gear with information received from the ECU, sensors and it's own transmission computer developed for F1 Racing by Magneti-Marelli.
Used in the Ferrari 355 in 1997 and other fast cars known as Free Choice with the new generation known as Mechatronic.
The I-Motion V W's use the same system known as ASG automatic shift gear.
The Dualogic Magneti-Marelli part number is FCF00201FIT and the V W part number is FCV00201VWS.
So do not run to the Fiat Dealership there are several Mechatronic specialists out there and independent V W/Audi/Skoda specialist that know about the AMT faults that can help you.
Correct AMT oil levels are very important so check on a regular basis.

 

[cotswoldtony]

Hi All, another AMT Update.
My partner drives a Fiat 500 Dualogic and loves it after I explained the do's and do not's to her, however she knows nothing about the problems that can arise.
I am researching this AMT system and already added a few points which I hope you are finding of interest to you. I have a little experience of DSG transmission and have a very good independent Audi/VW/Skoda/Seat technician that I can ask about my recent Mechatronic/Free choice post. I have sent an email to the AMT manufacturer Magneti Marelli technical support team and will post their response a.s.a.p. From what I can understand the dualogic is based on the M20 manual gearbox just fitted with the Magneti Marelli AMT system. The good news is all the components are fitted to the outside of the gearbox so not running in the gearbox oil like DSG transmission. Now from what I can see and understand is there is an electric pump that creates the pressure to operate the clutch fitted with the fluid container to one side of the gearbox and the solenoid gear selectors and TCM with clutch actuator mounted on the gearbox selector casing. My first impression of faults outlined on this site relate more to electrical than mechanical. My first thought is these AMT electrical components are all
in the area that can be effected if any under bonnet power washing or steam cleaning takes place. I know many people and garages use cheap road side foreign labour with power washers to clean their cars these days. Another point is Jaguar had problems with Italian electrical component connectors in these years dropping voltage so it is worth disconnecting all the AMT electrical connections and cleaning with a good switch gear cleaner (Maplins Switch Cleaner is good for this job) then reconnecting when dry.
Please post your comments/feedback so I can help find any common problems with this AMT system.

 

[jrkitching]

I know many people and garages use cheap road side foreign labour with power washers to clean their cars these days.

Over the years, I've lost count of the number of electrical problems caused by folks using power washers.

I recall one chap who tried to free off a stuck brake bad with a power washer . That didn't end well either.

I spend quite a lot of time carefully cleaning and greasing parts to prevent water ingress and the inevitable corrosion which follows. I'd no more let anyone near the car with a power washer than with a flamethrower.

 

[John202020]

Maybe Fiat should fit a under tray to also prevent spray from the road coming up? Our Mazda has one that virtually seals the underneath only a opening near the bulkhead or ventilation

 

[jrkitching]

Maybe Fiat should fit a under tray to also prevent spray from the road coming up? Our Mazda has one that virtually seals the underneath only a opening near the bulkhead or ventilation

Certainly would get my vote.

I suppose one justification for not fitting one is that it'd add cost at service time.

I had one on my R5 back in the nineties; IMO it was worth the hassle of removing it at each oil change (6000 miles back in those days). Many of the dealers disagreed and they were often removed at the first service, never to be refitted . Mine was still going strong 13 years & 220k miles later when I finally sold the car. (That car never saw the inside of a dealer's workshop from the day I took delivery, bar MOT's.)

Helped to keep the inevitable odd drop of oil off the garage floor, too.

 

[ahmett]

Certainly would get my vote.

I suppose one justification for not fitting one is that it'd add cost at service time.

I had one on my R5 back in the nineties; IMO it was worth the hassle of removing it at each oil change (6000 miles back in those days). Many of the dealers disagreed and they were often removed at the first service, never to be refitted . Mine was still going strong 13 years & 220k miles later when I finally sold the car. (That car never saw the inside of a dealer's workshop from the day I took delivery, bar MOT's.)

Helped to keep the inevitable odd drop of oil off the garage floor, too.

Is it easy to just make your own? I have no idea why but the 500 1.4 has one. Judging by the amount of scratches on it, especially after lowering the suspension, I would assume it is very useful indeed.

 

[cotswoldtony]

Hi, All another AMT Dualogic Update.
I have not received a reply from Magneti-Marelli which is very disappointing.
I would like to find out what the real problems are with this system so my research continues.
It appears one problem is the electric fluid pump supply fuse blows with members pointing to pressure pump failure.
The electric pump operates to produce 65 bar which is about 95 psi hydraulic pressure to operate the clutch, low pressure via a pressure sensor will stop the TCM selecting gears with the vehicle stuck in N or D.
The Ferrari 360 has the same system and it appears the electric pump 30 amp supply becomes over loaded with the relay contacts jamming blowing the fuse. Their fix new pump motor, relay and fuse.
The Ferrari Denso Marelli pump design has no cooling system (fan or heatsink) which appears to be their problem fitted in the bulkhead.
I am told these pump motors are now available with heatsink which in my experience is visible with aluminium metal fins to disperse excessive heat build up.
It would be one question I would like Magneti Marelli tech team to answer.
I personally, if experiencing AMT problems would remove the pressure sensor and fit a T connection, refit the sensor with a pressure gauge which would allow you to view the system's pressure at all times and check the pressure sensor was operating correctly.
Your feedback please with any AMT problems/comments and do not bin any replaced pump motors as I would like to examine and check the serial numbers.

 

[jrkitching]

@cotswoldtony, this is great stuff; improving our technical knowledge base on dualogic systems will benefit us all.

 

[cotswoldtony]

Thank you for your support.
When dualogic owner's press their key fobs it removes the security system, unlocks the vehicle and also turns the AMT pressure pump on so your clutch is operational before you start the vehicle. Owner's will hear the noise of the pump as they unlock the vehicle, this is a simple pump check so get familiar with this noise. No pump noise equals no gears.
Electric solenoids that select the gears either side of the selector casing look like small electric motors, in the motor trade the simple way to check them is also to listen for the click as they engage which is loud. You can also put your fingers on the top to feel a jerk/click as they engage. With two people one inside the car selecting each gear manually and the other person under the bonnet can check the solenoids are operating.
Members reporting dualogic AMT going into N when driving should check that gear's solenoid's wiring connections as low voltage will release the gear solenoid to the N position. The TCM will think the vehicle is still in gear as it's job is to send a supply to that solenoid, solenoids rarely go wrong normally they suffer with voltage drop which brings us back to power washing under the bonnet. Poor quality italian wiring connectors that become powdery with heat also drop voltage as Jaguar found with their Magneti Marelli components.

 

[cotswoldtony]

Hi All, another Dualogic Update from Ferrari F1
This will be of interest to Fiat and V W owners with Magneti Marelli AMT/AGS gearbox experiencing transmission judder.
Watch this video [ame]https://youtu.be/bMVLq91Pwjo[/ame]

This link says it does not exist so send me your email address and I will send you a copy or go to youtube and type in
How Automated Manual Transmissions Work! (F1,SMG, E-Gear)

 

[cotswoldtony]

Hi All, another Dualogic update.
The heart of the AMT system is the electric pump which seems to give the most problems experienced by Fiat/Alfa/Ferrari/VW owners.
The pump works hard to create the 55 bar pressure required to operate the system correctly with any pressure drop causing gear change problems.
Modern cars operate using canbus via a BCM (Body Control Module) in simple terms the electrical components depend on good earthing to operate correctly.
The AMT pump wiring has no earth to it in the wiring picking up it's earth via the outer metal body so a clean mounting is important as is cleaning all earth wiring (fit an additional earth wire to the pump body).
The AMT pressure sensor electrical voltage is 5 volts via TCM, so a poor battery or poor/corroded electrical connection that drops this voltage by 0.5 of a volt will cause gear change problems.

 

[cotswoldtony]

Hi All,
I hope I am not teaching you all to suck eggs with these updates.
The Dualogic AMT problems appear to be the electric Denso Fluid pump that can be repaired or renewed with new brushes or a new pump found on Ebay.
The actuator can leak fluid dropping fluid pressure due to corrosion or delamination causing the fluid to leak hence dealerships replacing the total unit.
This can be an expensive fix at a dealership, however my research has found a service exchange unit refit exchange service with no fix no fee policy for £350.00 within a 50 mile radius of Plymouth.
Advertised on ebay the item number is 332050875484 or call Yuri on 07422677385

Your comments and feedback welcomed as my partner has a dualogic.

 

[JulianG]

Posts: 3
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United Kingdom
Gearbox pump
Fiat 500 Auto Box Dualogic.
Gearbox went into neutral and displayed transmission error AA man diagnosed low fluid in dualogic hydraulic system. AA man topped up system but this made no difference so car towed home.

First thing I did was check the fuses as there was no whirring noise when you open the drivers door. The car was blowing blowing the 40A Fuse when opening the door. When the pump was disconnected the fuse didn't blow so I presumed I had a faulty pump.

Extracted pump and tested it on a battery with a length of speaker wire (thin gauge cable) and the pump turned ?? Not as fast as I expected but it ran consistently at the same speed. Put my finger over the pumps hydraulic port to see what the pressure was like and the pump slowed right down to a stop quite quickly no real pressure. Is this a faulty pump? Should I use a heavy duty cable......

So attached the pump back on the car just the electrical connection no hydraulics and replaced the fuse. Opened the car door and nothing happened pump did not run and the fuse did not blow.

Does anybody know about how to test the pump ?
Why wont it run when disconnected ?

Any assistance much appreciated - too cold to carry on so stopping to take stock of the situation

 

[cotswoldtony]

Hi,
Sorry to hear about your dualogic problem, I am trying to help members with AMT troubles.
If the fuse has blown that means a direct short to earth.
Taking the pump off and testing it on a battery is not the answer as there is no load on the motor, it needs to work hard to maintain 55-65 bar pressure.
If you are looking for a cheap fix, dismantle the denso motor clean all the components, check resistance on the winds and armature and if o k fit new brushes and reassemble fitting an addition earth wire to the motor body.
This should stop the fuse blowing and return fluid pump pressure.
The pump wiring has no earth and will not run off the vehicle unless the pump body is placed on the earth side of a battery/vehicle.

 

[Guitarmaker]

The Duologic transmission started playing up...So I did take it to the Fiat dealer n this is what they send me in an email
.........................................
Following is the information from Zagame Automotive Group, Richmond VIC 3121 Australia (Fiat Dealer)

"We checked and investigated to find the gear selector actuator failed and leaked out lost pressure etc.
To remove and replace the gear selector actuator is $5990.00 supplied and fitted.
Please note the part is already at trade price."

I'm not sure if the dealer is telling me the truth.

Ok so it's a BLOODY EXPENSIVE PART!!!! it's like half of what I paid for this car.

Thanks a ton in advance.
Love from Australia.

My son in Melbourne (who does not run a Fiat) has been saying for years that all service and repair costs there are ripoff compared with the UK.

It's a huge amount of money - how much is the car worth after the repair?

 

[JulianG]

Ok so it gets worse.. The pump had burnt out as in the windings so took the pumpout and replaced the pump working on the premise that the fluid had been low and the pump over ran and burned out.

With the pump back in and the fuse replaced I reattached the battery and the clock came on no remote door locking working and when I put the key in the ignition the clock goes out and the speedo bounces a little otherwise its dead ??

Checked all the fuses still the same - clock comes on flashing otherwise dead. disconnected gearbox pump and still get the same problem ?? All fusees are ok including the ones in the glove box.

Relay ??

 

[Mikeyuk66]

Hello everyone. Firstly I am an imposter as we have not one but two Chrysler Ypsilons with the twin air and dual logic transmission. We have joined the Fiat forum as the cars are basically Fiat and there is a lack of information available when searching for Chrysler.

The cars are both 2012, puchased used. One failed with the jumping into neutral issue 2 weeks after we purchased it. That was ok as it was under warranty and the dual logic side of things were fully replaced.

In the last week or two the other has been playing up, culminating in me nearly getting wiped out as I tried to cross a busy road in rush hour. Stopping in the carriageway and seeing a large truck hurtling at me at 50 mph was a underwear filling moment. Luckily the driver braked and gave me enough time to roll back into the turning.

A massive thank you to this forum and this thread in particular as it gave me the information I required to check the actuator oil level and top it up. It needed 100ml of oil to bring the level up, I did this by opening the door to run the pump before filling to the mark, not sure if that is the correct approach.

The car has covered 38,000 miles, the other car managed 14,000 miles before failure. We love the cars and will monitor the oil level as part of the service routine.

Cheers.

 

[jrkitching]

Hello everyone.

Hello and welcome :wave:.

Sorry to hear about yet another dualogic problem.

 

[chas379]

Glad you came out unscathed. A very scary experience.