Technical The one and only Dualogic failure thread

[ahmett]

Re: Oh Dear....Another DEAD Dualogic (in Australia)

Update
When it went to the dealer yesterday they said I had to approve a 1hour diagnostic charge of about $150 in case the problem is found not to be covered by warranty ???????????????

Surely if the gearbox stops working I thought it would be warranty as there was no service requirement (as far as I recall) on the Dualogic in the 30K and 45K services that were carried out by Fiat dealers and they did the last service.

A call from them today to say that a preliminary codes check has been done and now needs 3 hours of diagnostics that may find a fault that is not be covered by warranty. Codes indicated a jammed actuator

So I have to approve another 3 hours at close enough to $150 per hour just to find our what is wrong and if they deem that it is not a manufacturing defect I will have to pay for the repair ... plus the towing charges.

They are saying that they have to check to see if we have done anything to cause the failure ...... WHAT THE ???????????

How would I - or my wife jam an actuator ??????? Are they kidding ??????
it is an "automatic" - for sh#ts sake.
They are supposed to be fool proof
Surely, if you press both brake and throttle at the same time, not recommended, they just do brakes - as in fail safe.
Maybe even shift to neutral but they shouldn't "hurt themselves"
Not that this is what happened here - the only controls being touched at the time were the throttle and steering wheel

Until Tuesday

I have very simple words of advise for you. If they do not replace the whole dualogic unit for free, under warranty, sell the car. It is simply not worth the risk, trust me. I have been there before, and it took 3 years of misery with fiat and on and off problems before Fiat finally fixed the whole dualogic sysstem out of warranty, costing me 1300 EUR, but in Aussieland the same problem will cost 6000 AUD. Not worth it for a budget car.

In my case, they changed the actuator but the probem came back after a year. Then we changed the actuator again, and the problem came back again! Finally, at the third attempt Fiat changed the whole system, i feel they did this on purpose to make me pay for the whole system instead of changing the whole system under warranty in the first place.

 

[Aussie500nut]

Re: Oh Dear....Another DEAD Dualogic (in Australia)

Thanks for your replies

Condolences; this is not a nice place to be..

Thanks - yes it is a feeling of utter helplessness just waiting to get shafted and knowing you can do nothing about it.

What you're experiencing mirrors what many have posted about the harsher side of Fiat's warranty . It's like they're assuming it's your fault, then demanding $600 of your money just so they can do a detailed search to find some reason to justify that position.

And when they do I have no argument as they hold all the cards - including my car that I don't have the use of.
That's what is burning me up !!!
Might contact Fiat CS to check if this is their usual protocol.
Over the past 40 years when I have had warranty work done on cars I have never been asked up front for an authorisation to pay.

Get a list of all parts which have been replaced.

I'd be very suspicious if all they did was to free off a jammed actuator..

Thanks - good idea.
BTW ....It has only done 58,00kms with no city traffic as we live semi rural and is mostly 80 and 100kph driving.
I will be lucky to get it back before the warranty runs out and if all they do is free it up I will need some assurance that the repair has some sort of guarantee. No telling how long it will take to jam again and then I am up for the tow and the repair

Whatever they do now, how can you be expected to have any confidence in the long term sustainability of the car? Even if they replace the entire gearbox and selespeed unit, why should you reasonably expect a new one to last any longer than the old one has? So even in the best possible case, in 3yrs time, you could be looking at a $6000 bill .

Unfortunately you are right
As much as we love the car I think it has reached its use by date.
Even as you say, with another complete new control unit it could fail in a couple of years. But I somehow doubt that the will replace the whole unit.

They are a fun car and it is such a pity it is let down initially by bad design, then lack of rectification in that Fiat is aware that the Dualogic has had problems but done nothing to prevent them.

I have very simple words of advise for you. If they do not replace the whole dualogic unit for free, under warranty, sell the car. It is simply not worth the risk, trust me. I have been there before, and it took 3 years of misery with fiat and on and off problems before Fiat finally fixed the whole dualogic sysstem out of warranty, costing me 1300 EUR, but in Aussieland the same problem will cost 6000 AUD. Not worth it for a budget car.

In my case, they changed the actuator but the probem came back after a year. Then we changed the actuator again, and the problem came back again! Finally, at the third attempt Fiat changed the whole system, i feel they did this on purpose to make me pay for the whole system instead of changing the whole system under warranty in the first place.

Thanks Ahmett
I have followed your exploits with the gearbox over the past 3 years and could feel your frustration and pain at the time.
Yes it will be interesting to see what they do - it is all about money - but it is a sad state of affairs if their warranty is based on just getting your car to the end by what ever means. Does nothing to build brand loyalty, quite the opposite

Also good to know if they replace the actuator it should be good for 12 months

Totally agree that $6000AUD is just not in the equation.
Better to put that sort of money towards a new car not being a Fiat
Had a look at a Skoda Fabia today - nice car but not the character of the 500. Has 1.2 liter turbo with a twin clutch gearbox

 

[Broker1]

OK, so the part was fitted on Saturday by my mate and then he took it to have a gearbox "relearn" all in at £330 inc part & fitting. The part he used is part number 71732919. At the moment the car drives really well and holds onto the gears a bit longer than before (I assume that this is due to the relearn and it will/may adapt to my wifes style of driving?)

 

[500abarth]

Re: 500 Dualogic failure

In Australia when a Duologic actuator fails, the replacement assemble costs $AUD7,000 plus fitting. The entry-level new car price in Australia for a POP 1.2 is around $AUD16,000, which shows you how ridiculous the spare part pricing is. Heck, even Ferrari actuators for their paddle shift transmissions are just $AUD3,000.....

We seem to have poor dealer service training here as well. A trained monkey can plug in the FIAT/ALFA Analyzer, come up with a fault code, then make a decision to replace everything instead of finding the fault.

Thanks to this forum for giving me some ideas of the potential faults.

Just looking for opinions, but have there been enough actuator failures to indicate they might have a typical failure rate? Or are they usually robust and you can just be unlucky for one failure?

My options here in Oz are to take my car to a transmission specialist who repairs actuators for other brands of cars and let them go on a voyage of discovery - funded by me of course; the worst case scenario is to buy a second hand gearbox with two actuators for $AUD750 and hope my failure was just bad luck.

It would be nice to be able to contain the cost of a replacement actuator to just the 2000 Euros I read about here.

 

[Aussie500nut]

Re: 500 Dualogic failure

In Australia when a Duologic actuator fails, the replacement assemble costs $AUD7,000 plus fitting. The entry-level new car price in Australia for a POP 1.2 is around $AUD16,000, which shows you how ridiculous the spare part pricing is. Heck, even Ferrari actuators for their paddle shift transmissions are just $AUD3,000.....

We seem to have poor dealer service training here as well. A trained monkey can plug in the FIAT/ALFA Analyzer, come up with a fault code, then make a decision to replace everything instead of finding the fault.

Thanks to this forum for giving me some ideas of the potential faults.

Just looking for opinions, but have there been enough actuator failures to indicate they might have a typical failure rate? Or are they usually robust and you can just be unlucky for one failure?

My options here in Oz are to take my car to a transmission specialist who repairs actuators for other brands of cars and let them go on a voyage of discovery - funded by me of course; the worst case scenario is to buy a second hand gearbox with two actuators for $AUD750 and hope my failure was just bad luck.

It would be nice to be able to contain the cost of a replacement actuator to just the 2000 Euros I read about here.

Hi
There is another tread on this issue with more recent posts
here https://www.fiatforum.com/500/425006-one-only-dualogic-failure-thread.html
Our 500 Twin Air is currently at the dealer following a gearbox failure
Been there 2 weeks next Thursday and they still have no idea what's wrong with it or even if it will be covered by warranty which runs out in a couple of days.

 

[ahmett]

Re: 500 Dualogic failure

Hi
There is another tread on this issue with more recent posts
here https://www.fiatforum.com/500/425006-one-only-dualogic-failure-thread.html
Our 500 Twin Air is currently at the dealer following a gearbox failure
Been there 2 weeks next Thursday and they still have no idea what's wrong with it or even if it will be covered by warranty which runs out in a couple of days.

What's hilarious is that other than the cost, it takes about 2 hours to refit a whole dualogic assembly. Imagine how i felt without a car for 1 month (thats how long it took to come from Italy to Greece which is basically next door, so I guess no DHL they probably just do a once a month delivery to Greece from Italy and everyone waits), and then when the part came they fixed it immediately!

 

[ahmett]

Guess what guys, my gearbox actuator is acting strange again! It sometimes does 'manual mode unavailable' and goes into auto itself and sometimes it does not go into reverse!

I get the feeling that it is a battery issue. Anyway no transmission lights yet, so on to the traditional way to deal with Fiat problems, drive it until it properly breaks since going to the dealer for minor checks is a waste of time, especially with the dualogic!

 

[alexGS]

Guess what guys, my gearbox actuator is acting strange again! It sometimes does 'manual mode unavailable' and goes into auto itself and sometimes it does not go into reverse!

I get the feeling that it is a battery issue. Anyway no transmission lights yet, so on to the traditional way to deal with Fiat problems, drive it until it properly breaks since going to the dealer for minor checks is a waste of time, especially with the dualogic!

The only thing that would cause 'manual mode unavailable' would be a fault with the selector lever or the steering wheel paddles (if you have them) - probably just holding a paddle for long enough would trigger the message. Is the gear lever getting floppy in the centre position? - that could be a cause.

I didn't like the slackness in our lever, so I took it apart and secured the pivot blocks by wrapping masking tape around them, to make them a tighter fit.

I think it's highly likely that the part not replaced last time for you (the selector lever) is the fault this time

-Alex

 

[ahmett]

The only thing that would cause 'manual mode unavailable' would be a fault with the selector lever or the steering wheel paddles (if you have them) - probably just holding a paddle for long enough would trigger the message. Is the gear lever getting floppy in the centre position? - that could be a cause.

I didn't like the slackness in our lever, so I took it apart and secured the pivot blocks by wrapping masking tape around them, to make them a tighter fit.

I think it's highly likely that the part not replaced last time for you (the selector lever) is the fault this time

-Alex

yes you must be right because when i hit the gearbox system it then changes gear haha. any quick solution to this? i dont want to take it apart to mess it up, and i guess the Fiat dealer will be all too happy to charge me a boatload to change the lever. Is it expensive?

This morning i was stuck in 1st gear for like 30 seconds with the revs at 7000! haha my mom was like what on earth is going on with your car! i replied, 'its a fiat' haha

 

[florida brickie]

does anyone else had dialogic baring problems @ 30'000 miles it seems ridiculous. I have just returned from the dealership with this mind numbing news I have a disability and always drive in automatic mode the car is a 2011 500 lounge 1200 I am crushed as the dealership wants £1,000 labour to "investigate but did give me fiats customer service number has anyone else had this problem., it seems to me that this is a manufacturing fault of fiats I have a full service history and before I would give the dealership 1 ' 000 investigation would rather pay for a decent lawyer to throw the money to.
can anyone help thankyou in advance fb

 

[varesecrazy]

does anyone else had dialogic baring problems @ 30'000 miles it seems ridiculous. I have just returned from the dealership with this mind numbing news I have a disability and always drive in automatic mode the car is a 2011 500 lounge 1200 I am crushed as the dealership wants £1,000 labour to "investigate but did give me fiats customer service number has anyone else had this problem., it seems to me that this is a manufacturing fault of fiats I have a full service history and before I would give the dealership 1 ' 000 investigation would rather pay for a decent lawyer to throw the money to.
can anyone help thankyou in advance fb

Hi ,
that sounds bad..,
Bearing problems..?? new one on me..,

usually it's fluid issues , or is it a noisy gearbox bearing..?? that's a cheap fix for any Punto / panda / 500 box

what vehicle is it..?? 1.2 petrol with dualogic,
what year..??

IF FIAT are prepared to help out..then great.. but otherwise spend your money at a specialist independent

where are you / the car based..?? sorry I forget

Charlie

 

[500abarth]

Re: 500 Dualogic failure

The true joy of dealing with FIAT in Australia is the structure of FIAT Chrysler Australia (FCA). There is NO direct line of communication with the company......any complaints are handled by a third-party call-centre, who have strict instructions to never give any contact details, and are physically unable to switch your phone call through. When I tried to get a direct contact number, I was told the call would be terminated if I insisted on this, and sure enough the call-centre hung up on me. Fabulous customer relations.

I have been brand-loyal to FIAT since 1977, always been an early-adopter when a new model came out...which in Australia is not that often. I currently drive a manual 500 Abarth, which is a ton of fun and rewarding to own. I have been a member of a FIAT car club here also since 1977, and a bigger brand supporter you will never find in the world.

Sergio, I know Australia is a small market of 1,000,000 cars p.a., but your FCA stooges down here are killing both FIAT and Chrysler here.....and I am now past caring what brand damage I can cause, because your people here have NEVER cared about customers. They only barely comply with local consumer law, and no more than that.

In Australia, Chrysler/Jeep have a much worse reputation for quality and warranty issues than FIAT, and the local newspapers regularly carry stories of frustrated Jeep owners performing publicity stunts - such as crushing their Jeep with an army tank, or destroying their vehicle with explosives, etc - just as some sort of public revenge on their poor treatment by FCA. Yet FCA steadfastly refuses the concept of direct customer contact. They do not wish to get their hands dirty. We customers are just an inconvenience to their job of distribution.

I would understand if I was just unlucky with a Duologic failure, that it might be a rare thing. But the one piece of data none of us appear to have is an idea of the failure rate. Is it 5% or 55%? If it is 5% I would happily buy another FIAT with Duologic, as I intrinsically agree with the overall design principles, even if the engineering is a bit complex.

But if it was some ridiculously high figure, the Duologic should not even be on the market.
No wonder the cars in the USA went the conventional hydraulic auto transmission unit.
If FIAT were so unsure of Duologic in the home of consumer litigation (the USA), then why do they persist with Duologic? Especially as the actuators appear to be too expensive for the production line......unless of course the spare parts pricing is designed to make us buy a new car instead.

Does anyone have any experience with the reconditioning of the actuators with the eBay trader "fiatpartsshop"? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Dual-Logic-Semi-Automatic-Gearbox-Actuator-Grande-Punto-Panda-Idea-500-/331906244334?hash=item4d47275eee:g:VtIAAOSwNyFWeHYa#shpCntId

 

[jrkitching]

Re: 500 Dualogic failure

...then why do they persist with Duologic?

In Europe, it's all about economy and emissions - a conventional auto 'box would likely put the car into a tax band which would render it non-competitive in the marketplace.

In the UK, most new cars bought privately are purchased on finance agreements and traded away after at most 3-4 years; there is little incentive for manufacturers to mitigate against failures after that time. So long as most of the cars are sufficiently reliable as to be patchable for the duration of the warranty, there's little reason for Fiat to engineer quality into the product beyond that.

 

[ahmett]

Re: 500 Dualogic failure

In Europe, it's all about economy and emissions - a conventional auto 'box would likely put the car into a tax band which would render it non-competitive in the marketplace.

In the UK, most new cars bought privately are purchased on finance agreements and traded away after at most 3-4years; there is little incentive for manufacturers to mitigate against failures after that time. So long as most of the cars are sufficiently reliable as to be patchable for the duration of the warranty, there's little reason for Fiat to engineer quality into the product beyond that.

exactly. they simply don't care. i mean when I bought my Fiat new in 2010, they gave me a 2 year warranty! I've spent so much fixing it, I decided to just keep the car until it dies with minimum maintenance. I will have to do a major service by October of 2017 with water pump, coolant and timing/aux belt change, so lets see how the car deals with everything until then!

 

[nerox87]

Re: Oh Dear....Another DEAD Dualogic (in Australia)

I have very simple words of advise for you. If they do not replace the whole dualogic unit for free, under warranty, sell the car. It is simply not worth the risk, trust me. I have been there before, and it took 3 years of misery with fiat and on and off problems before Fiat finally fixed the whole dualogic sysstem out of warranty, costing me 1300 EUR, but in Aussieland the same problem will cost 6000 AUD. Not worth it for a budget car.

In my case, they changed the actuator but the probem came back after a year. Then we changed the actuator again, and the problem came back again! Finally, at the third attempt Fiat changed the whole system, i feel they did this on purpose to make me pay for the whole system instead of changing the whole system under warranty in the first place.

Hi! What do you mean by replacing whole system? I'm having a similar issue where after replacing the actuator x2 times the problem is still remaining. Extremely appreciate your advice all mechanics I've been to are baffled by this condition.

 

[ahmett]

Re: Oh Dear....Another DEAD Dualogic (in Australia)

Hi! What do you mean by replacing whole system? I'm having a similar issue where after replacing the actuator x2 times the problem is still remaining. Extremely appreciate your advice all mechanics I've been to are baffled by this condition.

the whole dualogic system basically, Fiat sells it in a box for around 1300 Euros!

I also replaced the actuator twice and it never solved the problem fully, it just kept on coming back until i replaced the whole system, which finally solved the problem fully = )

Problem is only an italian specialist or a Fiat dealer would know about this = ( Call Fiat directly if you need to, which is what I did and got a 10% discount. Tell them that replacing actuator didn't work, you are fed up etc etc, basically give them hell. But remember, you can only get the discount if you go to a Fiat main dealer.

 

[nerox87]

Hey ahmett! Any idea what was included in that box? We dont have a proper fiat dealer here in sri lanka. I might need to ship this in from somewhere. At least if I knew whats included in the box I could try replacing the other parts to see if it would fix the problem.

 

[ahmett]

Hey ahmett! Any idea what was included in that box? We dont have a proper fiat dealer here in sri lanka. I might need to ship this in from somewhere. At least if I knew whats included in the box I could try replacing the other parts to see if it would fix the problem.

No they sell it as a whole pack in one piece. I think you should call Fiat Italy, maybe they'll help you out and even ship it for you!

 

[Nicole Lewis]

Reading all these posts makes me extremely angry with Fiat. I am having this problem with my Fiat 1.2 500 dual logic (2013) and the issues are almost identical to Carolyn's story. The car has 2 months of warranty left and I have only done 14000 kms. The first time the car was towed to the dealer and they fixed the transmission sensors. I got the car back and 3 days later, it would not go out of neutral in my driveway. Eventually I got it into gear and then it went into neutral while I was driving. They then took it to the dealership and fixed a valve. Test drove it for a week with no problems and then the day I picked it up, after 2 minutes of driving, it went into neutral while I was driving on a busy bridge. When the dealer's mechanic met me at the site, the gears started working. They made me feel like I was lying as did Fiat who just keep saying that they cannot fix it till they can replicate the fault. The mechanics took it for a week and a half and 'bled the valve', I took it home and the next morning the problem was back. I did film it and took this to the dealer who still claimed he needs to be there when it happens(I think to switch it into a computer for diagnostics. I went the next morning and started it in front of the mechanic and it would not go out of neutral. I asked him if he was going to hook it up to the diagnostics as apparently it is the only way to solve the problem. He said they would later that day. In the last few days they have removed the gearbox and could not find a fault, also the clutch, and have since test driven the car and it went into neutral for them in traffic too. I will be showing them this forum as apparently neither the dealer or Fiat have heard of this issue happening before. I am in Australia. Has anyone here tried legal action? I want the car replaced or my money back? We need to get something out there to see how big this problem really is! I suspect this requires a recall and that is why they are hiding the truth.

 

[Nicole Lewis]

Thanks for your replies


Thanks - yes it is a feeling of utter helplessness just waiting to get shafted and knowing you can do nothing about it.

And when they do I have no argument as they hold all the cards - including my car that I don't have the use of.
That's what is burning me up !!!
Might contact Fiat CS to check if this is their usual protocol.
Over the past 40 years when I have had warranty work done on cars I have never been asked up front for an authorisation to pay.


Thanks - good idea.
BTW ....It has only done 58,00kms with no city traffic as we live semi rural and is mostly 80 and 100kph driving.
I will be lucky to get it back before the warranty runs out and if all they do is free it up I will need some assurance that the repair has some sort of guarantee. No telling how long it will take to jam again and then I am up for the tow and the repair


Unfortunately you are right
As much as we love the car I think it has reached its use by date.
Even as you say, with another complete new control unit it could fail in a couple of years. But I somehow doubt that the will replace the whole unit.

They are a fun car and it is such a pity it is let down initially by bad design, then lack of rectification in that Fiat is aware that the Dualogic has had problems but done nothing to prevent them.



Thanks Ahmett
I have followed your exploits with the gearbox over the past 3 years and could feel your frustration and pain at the time.
Yes it will be interesting to see what they do - it is all about money - but it is a sad state of affairs if their warranty is based on just getting your car to the end by what ever means. Does nothing to build brand loyalty, quite the opposite

Also good to know if they replace the actuator it should be good for 12 months

Totally agree that $6000AUD is just not in the equation.
Better to put that sort of money towards a new car not being a Fiat
Had a look at a Skoda Fabia today - nice car but not the character of the 500. Has 1.2 liter turbo with a twin clutch gearbox

I am having similar issues in Tasmania and have sent you a message.