yostumpy said:

use slightly more fuel yes, say 60-120 secs on tickover, but the distance covered is far greater out of gear, without the engine braking.quite often , out of gear, the vehicle will actually pick up speed, as opposed to being held back.

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When you get the TA, you will notice something that I wasn't aware of until we bought ours.

Coming downhill in 5th gear, foot completely off the throttle, doesn't give any engine braking. In fact I reckon that our TA has very little engine braking compared to a "normal" car.

I'm not sure about this reason ........... the valves are operated by computer and not by a camshaft, tappets and springs. They are actuated by hydraulics controlled by a central processor instead. The engine shuts off fuel and maybe opens the valves somewhat.

This means that they are intelligent. The engine hasn't much in the way of "pumping losses" so when you take your foot off, the engine doesn't hold you back much. I've seen this many times locally comparing our 500TA to other cars we've had, plus the Clio we still have.

Come along on the main A390 heading east and as you approach the 40mph limit doing maybe 50mph, you slow down and as you go through the 40 sign ...... with a bit of skill ........ you're doing 40mph. Keep the foot off, go along a little way and as you approach the 30mph limit you are slowing down with no brakes. As you hit the 30 limit, you're doing bang on 30mph.

Try this in the TA:
Foot off at the same place and you can make the 40 limit ok.
Keep the foot off, and you're still doing nearly 40 at the 30 limit!
Therefore you need to brake to slow down rather than rely on engine braking.

This situation is repeated in many other scenarios. Our TA needs a different approach to driving with speed control brakes vs coasting.

Cheers,
Mick.

Yes Mick, agree with you about the lack of engine braking on a TA with foot off accelerator going downhill. Ours mimmicks your own exactly.

ah, well that is very interesting to know, thanks, in all, a whole new driving experience.

Oh yes!
Our's has given me back the fun I used to have when driving.

I have driven Minis for more years than I care to remember, but for many recent years I haven't at all. Maybe we had 15 Minis over the years? Vans, estates, saloons, 848cc, 998cc 1098cc and latterly even a 1400cc 100bhp one!

Driving a TA has brought back a smile onto my face. The engine is a low revving one, but the kick you get from the turbo is wonderful. The sound of the roar and the push into your back is wonderful too.

Ours maybe only 85bhp, but every single one of those 85 horses is very obvious indeed.

Fun all the way with a 500TA.
Mick.

yes agree with that bit about fun, when I test drove a TA with about 6k on it, in a debate about TA v 1.2, it did make me smile, so much so that swmbo declared ''were having this one, I haven't seen you smile like that in a long time,'' . Says a lot for our relationship!



Slightly OT but related to the ECO button, have you seen the videos of the super fast Tesla elecric car, when they hit the ''INSANE'' button

yostumpy said:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...gIHADQ&usg=AFQjCNEaXFYCaAgGJBVINIE1iJ4pOlm0jQ

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Interesting link, but having watched only the first 15sec I close it, its not scientific and I rarely believe exactly what an onboard trip says, if done correctly keeping it in gear will use less fuel, and as I've said be far safer - ask yourself why coasting in neutral is a driving test failure.....

Most Easterly Pandas said:

ask yourself why coasting in neutral is a driving test failure.....

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Because the test dates back 80+ years to when cars had four wheel drums and 3" wide bias plys. Nowadays, a lot of cars do this automatically, and the next Golf is supposed to be the first manual that will coast in neutral with the engine off, all by itself.

Even into the 70's if you had RWD you could go down a gear and this moved the effective brake bias rearwards which could be used to help rotate the car in a tight situation, again all but irrelevant in our FWD world.

Engine braking might be worth 3hp, while the friction brakes are worth 1000hp.

FWIW, I use coast in neutral to get 60MPG tanks out of UFI, unless I need to slow down, then it's DFCO. The TA might not have much engine braking, but neutral still seems to deliver better results.

silly question, but 60 mpg tank? In AUS, are the gallons imp or US? I'm guessing imp. Also , presumbly, the stop / start wont work while coasting?

A neigbour of ours had a Saab 96 with the Ford V4, and it had a freewheel clutch. Maybe it's time to bring this system back?
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_96"]Saab 96 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@<title>Saab 96 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</title>@@AMEPARAM@@Saab 96[/ame]



Stop/Start only operates when the car is stationary in neutral clutch pedal up.
Move forward or backwards under gravity and the engine will start. Depress the clutch and the engine will start.

After 3mins of Stop, the engine will self-start ........... or before then if it needs to due to high drain off the battery such as heater settings, full beams, fast wipers etc.

If it won't stop for the full three minutes, either the battery needs charging or the battery is past its best.

Regards,
Mick.

UFI said:

Because the test dates back 80+ years to when cars had four wheel drums and 3" wide bias plys. Nowadays, a lot of cars do this automatically, and the next Golf is supposed to be the first manual that will coast in neutral with the engine off, all by itself.

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Interesting, I was going to saw hows it a manual then, but I assume it'll be similar to the Saab below

You're still not in full control if coasting in neutral in a normal car though, and its still far from recommended.

I suppose people could get a Hybrid Toyota, no engine until 40MPH when coasting

Mick F said:

A neigbour of ours had a Saab 96 with the Ford V4, and it had a freewheel clutch. Maybe it's time to bring this system back?
Saab 96 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Interesting.

yostumpy said:

silly question, but 60 mpg tank? In AUS, are the gallons imp or US? I'm guessing imp.

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We don't use the ass backwards MPG measure here, but I've converted it to imperial MPG for the sake of you guys

Most Easterly Pandas said:

You're still not in full control if coasting in neutral in a normal car though, and its still far from recommended..

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How often do you need to accelerate away from a potential accident? I can't recall ever having to do that. Second, if I'm cruising along at 30mph in 5th gear, 'accelerate' is wishful thinking. I need to go down a couple of gears first. In that regard, I'm better off in neutral as then I've only got half a gear change to complete.

UFI said:

How often do you need to accelerate away from a potential accident? I can't recall ever having to do that. Second, if I'm cruising along at 30mph in 5th gear, 'accelerate' is wishful thinking. I need to go down a couple of gears first. In that regard, I'm better off in neutral as then I've only got half a gear change to complete.

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Who says its to do with accelerating away from things, its more to do with not cooking your brakes etc and being able to maintain a stead speed without the car running away etc. Will all depend upon the hill, but those that you'll probably be putting it into neutral for are the ones which will probably catch you (or most, I know some are better than others (and this isn't attempting to be sarcastic)) out!

when 'running away downhill' there is another knack, you don't cook the brakes. If the road is clear ,you just let it go, as you wont reach warp factor 10, but for slowing and speed restrictions, a firm shortish prod on the brakes, seems to reduce speed, without loosing too much momentum.

Most Easterly Pandas said:

Who says its to do with accelerating away from things, its more to do with not cooking your brakes etc and being able to maintain a stead speed without the car running away etc. Will all depend upon the hill, but those that you'll probably be putting it into neutral for are the ones which will probably catch you (or most, I know some are better than others (and this isn't attempting to be sarcastic)) out!

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Coasting neutral is only a useful technique on flat or gentle grades. On steeper grades you may as well use DFCO and save the brakes, and spin up the alternator for a bit of charge. If I know the hill, I'll crest it at such speed that I reach the speed limit at the bottom, no chance of a run away. Depends on the car too, my Jeep will never exceed 60mph on the steepest/ longest hill I have ( the Jeep has no DFCO to speak of).

Besides which I think you'd have to be a bit 'special' to not realise you're decending a steep hill and prepare accordingly.

This argument between coasting and leaving it in gear on downhill slopes has come up before.
The reasoning seems to be that when the ‘throttle’ is closed, modern engines use no fuel, and therefore there is no better way to economise on fuel usage.

This is not always true. Imagine you are in gear and descending a hill on a closed throttle and you are going slowly enough for engine revs drop to around tickover speed. At this point (in practice at a speed above normal tickover) fuel begins to be used roughly as it would be if you were in neutral.

It follows then that as long as you can coast in neutral at a higher speed than tickover in top gear would normally allow, your economy should be better. This would be particularly true if you were able to coast as such a speed for a long distance.

Obviously other factors come into play, particularly having the skill to accurately read oncoming road conditions. Guess this skill is what can contribute most to any economy drive.

Sweetsixteen said:

This argument between coasting and leaving it in gear on downhill slopes has come up before.......

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The thing is, there is no argument. Folk shouldn't be 'coasting' downhill in any case. It's both stupid and potentially unsafe, but I guess you'll always have some people who will think they know better or are somehow 'safer' drivers than others. I drive just short of 1000 miles Monday to Friday, week in, week out and I don't coast and I certainly don't think I'm a better driver than anyone else.

Coasting. This term describes a vehicle travelling in neutral or with the clutch pressed down. It can reduce driver control because

• engine braking is eliminated
• vehicle speed downhill will increase quickly
• increased use of the footbrake can reduce its effectiveness
• steering response will be affected, particularly on bends and corners
• it may be more difficult to select the appropriate gear when needed.

There's a reason why coasting isn't taught to learner drivers!

frupi said:

The thing is, there is no argument. Folk shouldn't be 'coasting' downhill in any case. It's both stupid and potentially unsafe, but I guess you'll always have some people who will think they know better or are somehow 'safer' drivers than others. I drive just short of 1000 miles Monday to Friday, week in, week out and I don't coast and I certainly don't think I'm a better driver than anyone else.

Coasting. This term describes a vehicle travelling in neutral or with the clutch pressed down. It can reduce driver control because

• engine braking is eliminated
• vehicle speed downhill will increase quickly
• increased use of the footbrake can reduce its effectiveness
• steering response will be affected, particularly on bends and corners
• it may be more difficult to select the appropriate gear when needed.

There's a reason why coasting isn't taught to learner drivers!

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I remeber @1994 when Chris Goffey - on a MOTORING programme called "Top Gear" was testing a(semi-auto) Golf that coasted down hills - he stated that doing so in the UK was ILLEGAL,
so assume the same still applies,
I agree using neutral down a hill will force the engine to idle.. therefore using fuel,
BUT - is this less efficient than the drag of the engine churning over with the vehicles inertia, and the fuel then needed to regain the same road speed..,
Charlie

I think eco-coasting or coasting full stop is a grey area in UK law. The point is, it isn't the brightest thing in the world to do full stop.

Modern car with electronic engine management - fuel and ignition systems are effectively combined and controlled by one Electronic Control Unit (ECU). Take your foot off the accelerator and the ECU cuts the fuel supply to the injectors anyway so there's nothing to be gained by coasting. Source: AA

frupi said:

so there's nothing to be gained by coasting. Source: AA

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If you can coast further, then you benefit more miles/kilometers.