Go for it!

Morning all,

A little update, the old owner claims he didn't know of the trouble and was entirely unaware that there was even an issue, obviously glad he is shot of it...

So after a brief dispute with him, I made a call to fiat to see if this would be covered. Turns out the car is owed 2 recalls, one for the coil packs and another for some wiring behind the dash? I mentioned the turbo and the problems I have been having and they said they will book it in for the recalls under warranty and check out the turbo issue while there.

So come Monday I should have new coil packs and dashboard wiring and hopefully have come closer to understanding what is wrong with the car, if it is serious and will cost me alot of money then I will pursue the seller as far as I can. If not then I'll probably just see about getting it fixed within reason and let my festive spirit forgive the bloke!

Alot of hassle but I suppose a 2012 Fiat 500 with only 5k miles on, priced at a measly £5600 should of raised questions....

Aleck.

Aleck002 said:

Alot of hassle but I suppose a 2012 Fiat 500 with only 5k miles on, priced at a measly £5600 should of raised questions....

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Considering my old one is up (at a trader, admittedly) with nearly 50k on the clock for around a grand more than that and started at 2 grand more than that, the old adage of "if it looks too good to be true" applies here. Hell, that's only £600 more than I got for mine in P/X (with it coming up for a service and starting to get towards new cambelt time) against a heavily discounted new car with 0% finance.

As they say, hindsight is 20/20- we've all been there.

On the plus side, you should be able to get it fixed (even if FIAT offer no contribution) and still come out "quids in" over a "genuine" example. It might not even need a whole new turbo- though I'd bank on a previous owner that behaved like this being pretty certain before they made their move. In your position, I'd be leaning on FIAT heavily.

I hope this is not the start of twinair turbo failures.

Recall wise, the coilpacks was a big one on the (earlier?) twinairs; there was a bit of trouble with them breaking down when hot. The dash wiring is installation of a simple "clip" (cable tie with a bolt hole type thing I think) to keep some wiring away from the steering column.

Out of interest, what's the service history like- full FIAT?

zanes said:

...though I'd bank on a previous owner that behaved like this being pretty certain before they made their move.

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...me too, but that's just personal opinion based on my cynical view of human nature.

Aleck002 said:

A little update, the old owner claims he didn't know of the trouble and was entirely unaware that there was even an issue

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Probably not what you want to hear, but if he sticks to that story, you have no legal claim against him unless you have clear evidence that he is a trader masquerading as a private seller. How long had the chap you bought it from owned the car? If it's only a short time, do some more digging... if you can show that he sold more than 4 cars in the past year, you might have a case and at the very least, you could cause him to have an uncomfortable conversation with HMRC.

As I said before, Fiat is your best hope of getting this fixed cheaply, but bear in mind if it's a 2012 car and has no service history that would invalidate any warranty, even if it were properly transferred to you as the new owner.

At least you bought it for a keen price so you have a bit of headroom if you do have to foot the bill for fixing this. It might be possible to get a reconditioned turbo from Fiat for around half the cost of a new one.

Tread carefully and good luck.

An update!

Took her to the fiat dealer earlier today and they ran a diagnostic on her and road tested her and came back telling me the problem is with the airbox pipe leading to the turbo and the mount/ clip... Not an expensive fix but seems slightly odd that this would cause such a big problem especially as I haven't noticed any leaks or defects with this pipe!

Regardless I've ordered a new pipe and I'll fit that over Christmas then see if it fixes the problem if not it'll be going back and going through the diagnostics again!

Thanks

Aleck.

Aleck002 said:

An update!

Took her to the fiat dealer earlier today and they ran a diagnostic on her and road tested her and came back telling me the problem is with the airbox pipe leading to the turbo and the mount/ clip... Not an expensive fix but seems slightly odd that this would cause such a big problem especially as I haven't noticed any leaks or defects with this pipe!

Regardless I've ordered a new pipe and I'll fit that over Christmas then see if it fixes the problem if not it'll be going back and going through the diagnostics again!

Thanks

Aleck.

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I can't honestly believe that that's the issue with lack of power.
I hope so but it doesn't really seem to make sense.

You sure it's not a pipe from the turbo rather than a pipe to the turbo?

Just checked the invoice again and realised it says 'new airbox pipe required plus clip, then further testing needed'

It's seems this was just the first problem on the checklist of possible problems.

Aleck.

well, that doesn't mean it's actually the airbox pipe they're replacing

From your description and the fault codes I don't think it's the actual turbo.

If it was you would probably see oil smoke and or some pretty nasty noises.
Sounds like its not getting full boost which is probably down to a waste gate problem or a vacuum leak. So the hose replacement sounds like a good start.

sorry to hear your having problems with your twinair? I have had mine for a few months and have had no trouble, they are nippy wee motors when out of eco, I've had mine at 115mph even though from what I can see online they only do 108

speedyreidy said:

sorry to hear your having problems with your twinair? I have had mine for a few months and have had no trouble, they are nippy wee motors when out of eco, I've had mine at 115mph even though from what I can see online they only do 108

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be careful, 115 mph indicated is not 115 GPS = )

I've yet to take my handheld GPS with me in our 500.
Our Renault Clio shows 32mph at GPS30, and 73mph at GPS70. (could be a linear(ish) error rather than a percentage?)

It would be interesting to see how a Fiat 500 compares.

Happy Boxing Day,
Mick.

glad you're getting somewhere,

a holed intercooler/ or supply line will cause havoc with a turbocharged engine,
so a seemingly innocuos minor thing could be all it takes,
good luck,
and get the warranty transferred..!!,
Charlie - Oxfrd

So airbox pipe replaced and a new clip applied, as expected it has not changed how the car drives!

It's due back at the garage for the further testing part later in the week, but until then does anyone have/ know of a workshop manual or something in this vein? I've searched and found things for the standard 500 but not the twinair?!

The trouble with engines becoming cleverer and cleverer, it is becoming increasingly more difficult to diagnose problems when everything is electrical!!

Thanks again

Aleck.

Mick F said:

I've yet to take my handheld GPS with me in our 500.
Our Renault Clio shows 32mph at GPS30, and 73mph at GPS70. (could be a linear(ish) error rather than a percentage?)

It would be interesting to see how a Fiat 500 compares.

Happy Boxing Day,
Mick.

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The speedo needle is a bit vague but at 85kph indicated my GPS devices display exactly 80km/h and at 110km/h indicated it's 103km/h, which suggests a linear deviation I suppose. I should have thought an electronic speedo would have been more accurate but at least it'd keep you comfortably under the speed limit. I had a Toyota Yaris loan car at one stage and its digital speedo was spot on.

Aleck002 said:

So airbox pipe replaced and a new clip applied, as expected it has not changed how the car drives!

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Sorry it's not helped, but as you say, no great surprise really.

At this point, I'd be 'phoning one of the specialist turbo reconditioning companies. A google search brings up loads & some offer a free telephone advice service, for example: "Our technical support staff can provide telephone advice on any aspect of fitting, fault finding and diagnosis of any related suspect turbocharger problems".

I suspect it'd be a lot more useful to take the car over to one of them for a diagnostic, than taking it to a Fiat dealer.

I also suspect it'd be a lot less expensive.

Ok but it's one thing eliminated.

It's odd that you weren't getting an engine management light with those fault codes.

I sort of agree with your comment about everything getting too complex now but if you can find someone who understands the fault codes you'll be sorted I'm sure.

Unfortunately you're unlikely to find such a person in any dealership

I did have an engine management light, with the fault code P0236, this relates to the turbocharger boost sensor and subsequent air supply circuit, according to fiat this is down to the part I have just changed, as such I have erased the code and will wait to see if it comes back as I'm sure it will!

As per everyone's advice I have checked the boost hoses and all pipe work leading to the turbo for leaks or faults and they are all exactly as they should be!

I think maybe reconditioning the turbo could be a good idea, although it does seem to be working, and the waste gate is functioning as it should!

I will be booking it back in for the further tests next week and asking for the master technician and see what results I get! As I am somewhat out of ideas, thus why I'd like to have a look at a workshop manual but again, cannot find anything of the sort online!!

Good news is the missus loves the car! Luckily for me she's not of the sort to understand these things so thinks it's perfect!!!

Aleck.

Maybe its the actual boost sensor?

From your description I still don't see it as a faulty turbo.

If its easy to disconnect the air intake system you can spin the turbo with your fingers. It should be really free and make no noise and have no side to side movement. At least this would put your mind at ease with respect to the turbo. At the end of the day they are very basic. Its the control systems that get complex. If that checks out the turbo must be functional, but somehow the boost is not getting to the cylinders. So the control system must be opening the waste gate or you have an air / vacuum leak.

If you're still not getting full or even any boost you should have some more fault codes logged.

Btw when I say understand the fault codes I don't just mean converting the code into words I mean truly understanding what they mean, especially when you have more than one.