Hi there
Have just joined the forum so this is my first post.


We have just taken delivery of a new 500 1.2 Lounge. Both my wife and I have noticed that the operation of the vehicle at slow speeds/when pulling away in fist gear is odd. I understand that the Euro 6 Engines have a device fitted to the clutch pedal to reduce emissions. We have found that the vehicle loses power when pulling away in first gear and then picks up after a short period of hesitation. It feels very unsafe, when trying to pull out into traffic. The dealer has checked everything out sent data to Fiat. I have raised a case number with Fiat Care. We are being told this is the way the car operates and we need to 'learn how to drive it'


Has anyone else experienced a problem on the Euro 6 engines vehicles?


Hope someone can help.


Thanks

Hello,
My daughter's 1.2 Lounge just came back from a 3-week stint back at the garage while they investigated exactly the problem you described. She's had the car since the end of Feb (brand new 63 plate) and originally put it down to being new/tight compared to her 2011 plate 1.2. I don't know the full extent of what they did, but a new ECU was part of it. The problem seems to be fixed, so far so good... Interestingly the 63 plate 1.2 pop she had as a courtesy car had no probs at all!

mine was like that when new. Just need to drive it more and put on the miles.

Alfie14 said:

Hi there
Have just joined the forum so this is my first post.


We have just taken delivery of a new 500 1.2 Lounge. Both my wife and I have noticed that the operation of the vehicle at slow speeds/when pulling away in fist gear is odd. I understand that the Euro 6 Engines have a device fitted to the clutch pedal to reduce emissions. We have found that the vehicle loses power when pulling away in first gear and then picks up after a short period of hesitation. It feels very unsafe, when trying to pull out into traffic. The dealer has checked everything out sent data to Fiat. I have raised a case number with Fiat Care. We are being told this is the way the car operates and we need to 'learn how to drive it'

Has anyone else experienced a problem on the Euro 6 engines vehicles?


Hope someone can help.


Thanks

Click to expand...

Firstly, hello and welcome :wave:. It's good to have you here in the forum.

There have been a number of similar posts about the latest (Euro 6?) 1.2 engines, both in the 500 and in the Panda - whish suggests to me that FIAT have made some changes recently to the engine/mapping which is causing the issue these posters are describing.

I've no personal experience of the latest cars (I've not test driven one for a while), so can't comment as to how real/serious this issue is, but I'd put my money on FIAT having done something different with the most recently produced engines.

What I'd take absolutely no notice of are those folks with earlier cars who are saying that this issue will go away once the car has had a bit more running in. Whilst it's undoubtedly true that, like almost all engines, the 1.2 loosens up considerably once it's got a few miles under its belt, what is being described by the latest posters is not IMO something which will just resolve with time & mileage.

Alfie14 said:

I understand that the Euro 6 Engines have a device fitted to the clutch pedal to reduce emissions.

Click to expand...

I'd like to know a bit more about this.

I quite agree jrkitching, this sounds like a pretty serious issue actually as all of the symptoms people have described on here recently are virtually identical.

Alfie14 - we have a 2012 1.2 Panda Easy so it's not got the very latest version. However, now I've had a good think about it, it's true that this is a "delay" in the throttle pick up when pulling away in first gear sometimes. But this is only if the car is creeping ever so slightly and I then need to pop it back into first just to get away as it would get too bogged down in second.

Does this particular issue happen when the car is at a standstill and then pulls away, or are you already in motion and then looking to pull off in first?

Would be interested to hear.

Got to agree with you JR on this. Sounds like it's got nothing at all to do with running in. I've had several new cars, too many! None have had these symptoms even from zero miles, just the usual tight gearboxes and odd burning off smells, but they all pretty much drove as they should.
Some kind of nonsense going on to comply with the latest emission requirements. In the whole scheme of things it's not like a 1.2 Fiat engine is going to destroy the planet.
Someone on the Abarth forum mentioned that his new Euro 6 595 felt nothing like the 595 he traded it in for.

I postulated this when David Bliss posted here; it all being to do with Euro VI.

However, I think it was Maxi who pointed this out, Euro VI is actually (from Wiki) the same as Euro V for petrol engines, so not sure what fiat have changed/screwed up.

zanes said:

I postulated this when David Bliss posted here; it all being to do with Euro VI.

However, I think it was Maxi who pointed this out, Euro VI is actually (from Wiki) the same as Euro V for petrol engines, so not sure what fiat have changed/screwed up.

Click to expand...

Wikipedia??? That well known fountain of automotive knowledge!

Mercky said:

Wikipedia??? That well known fountain of automotive knowledge!

Click to expand...

European commission said:

This report summarises the impact of a further stage of emission limits for light duty
vehicles, beyond those proposed by the Commission in the draft Euro 5 Regulation. A
Euro 6 step of emission limits would focus on reducing the emissions of NOx from diesel
cars and vans in order to support efforts to achieve European air quality objectives. It is
intended that Euro 6 would enter into force 5 years after Euro 5.

Click to expand...

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/automotive/files/environment/impact_assessment_euro6_en.pdf

However, of course, you're quite right in your Genius Revelation (TM) that Wiki is not a primary source (strictly speaking, of course, neither is that summary report above).

For that, you'd probably want this document: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...ZlnL2f8Qspk4!-1897320616?uri=CELEX:32008R0692

(Hint: it's Annex 17 you want- it'll confirm Wiki's right )

Of course, for mega getting-the-last-word-in-and-trying-to-look-clever-points you can always sit down, read the entire document and then say there's something in there somewhere that FIAT would be trying to comply with, other than those Annex 17 standards. Plenty to go at, champ.

Hi everyone, thanks for the welcome and your comments on this.


I have been back to the dealer today, who are very supportive of the issue we are experiencing. We are thinking quite seriously of rejection the car on safety grounds. Twice this week my wife has found that this 'feature' has almost resulted in a accident. She has lost complete confidence in the car and the whole enjoyment of purchasing a new vehicle has drained away.
The garage are getting back to Fiat to trying to get to the bottom of this and are treating this very seriously.

Super Uwe:- the problem is most noticeable when pulling off from a standstill, but if you are climbing hills from a slow start we also get a similar problem. It's as if the ECU mapping is all wrong. It drives completely different to the Euro 5 1.2.

jrkitching:- It's my understanding there is a two stage potentiometer that is fitted to the clutch pedal. Fiat are trying to educate a different driving style. You will find that you can virtually bring the clutch in from standstill without stalling the engine as bringing up the clutch increases the revs. Consequently when the clutch is fully in revs are needed and this catches the driver out so you have a kind of dead spot before realising you need to press the accelerator. Its hard to describe so I hope that make some sense.


I can't believe you can spend £12K on a new car in this day and age and have a vehicle that is not fit for purpose.


Regards

We have a 2013 500S 1.2 and have the same issue its been back to dealer twice and they cannot find anything wrong.Its now done over 4000mls.There is something wrong with these cars.I would say to anyone thinking of buying a new 500 1.2 dont until Fiat sort it out.

Alfie14 said:

It's my understanding there is a two stage potentiometer that is fitted to the clutch pedal. Fiat are trying to educate a different driving style. You will find that you can virtually bring the clutch in from standstill without stalling the engine as bringing up the clutch increases the revs. Consequently when the clutch is fully in revs are needed and this catches the driver out so you have a kind of dead spot before realising you need to press the accelerator. Its hard to describe so I hope that make some sense.

Click to expand...

This would certainly go some way toward explaining what an ever-increasing number of generally dissatisfied purchasers are describing.

It's the first I've heard of it, and IMO sounds like FIAT have been trying to fix something that wasn't broken in the first place, and making it worse.

What I can say from personal experience is that, IMO, the best variant of the 1.2 engine for normal driving is the 188A4000 60hp unit fitted to the 1.2 Eco Panda from 2008-2010. Adding vvt and raising the compression ratio in the 69hp 500 engine pushed the peak torque higher up the rev band, made the engine less flexible, and introduced the potental for catastrophic engine damage on what was previously a failsafe engine.

It's now beginning to sound as if FIAT have taken a further step backward with the venerable and much-loved 1.2 8V engine.

Sorry Mercky, crappy day at work. Will edit later when not on phone

I have found I have to put the revs up around 2500 before I pull away, or
the car will pull very slowly or kangaroo hop down the road.

But when I reverse off my drive I can do it at normal revs with no problems,
which to me suggests different mapping of the engine.

Officina red said:

I have found I have to put the revs up around 2500 before I pull away, or
the car will pull very slowly or kangaroo hop down the road.

Click to expand...

That does not bode well for the long term life of the clutch, and it won't help the fuel economy, either .

jrkitching said:

That does not bode well for the long term life of the clutch.

Click to expand...

Not so good for the fuel economy either.

That's all very disappointing and annoying for new 1.2 owners, if the numbers reporting on this forum are anything to go by then there must be a lot more new owners out there with the same issue, the only consolation being that it should add momentum to fiat sorting a fix/recall, funny that some cars are ok though if it's a general mapping euro 6 issue or maybe it's down to this pot that's being mentioned. Drove a friends 2004 panda recently - what a flyer, so progress is not always good! Kinda glad I opted for a TA all the same but they had teething problems too with coils etc. Hope you guys get sorted.

This sounds a bit like the problem I had with my Doblo. If I released the clutch normally the car would stall, and the only solution was to rev the engine and slip the clutch to get going. No problems in reverse. The receptionist stalled it when moving it in the car park and commented on it himself. I was getting sick of being in the dealership for various things, but the car dropped me in a few very embarrassing and even dangerous situations, and I never managed to drive around the problem.

I always thought it was a particular foible of that car, but now I wonder.

My new car has the same engine (with a different turbo) and, I suppose, the same gearbox and clutch system, but the driving characteristics are perfectly normal, thank god.

Officina red said:

I have found I have to put the revs up around 2500 before I pull away, or
the car will pull very slowly or kangaroo hop down the road.

But when I reverse off my drive I can do it at normal revs with no problems,
which to me suggests different mapping of the engine.

Click to expand...

Exactly, if it were some sort of two stage clutch switch then it'd be the same in reverse. It's the map or some sort of batch component failure.

306maxi said:

Exactly, if it were some sort of two stage clutch switch then it'd be the same in reverse. It's the map or some sort of batch component failure.

Click to expand...

The mapping could be programmed to ignore any two stage clutch switch thingy when in reverse.

I'm guessing there's now so much software between the input devices used by the driver and what actually happens at the sharp end of the engine that even the guys who programmed it can't be sure how it's going to respond in every situation.

There's clearly something systematic which is affecting these cars; my hunch is that it's more likely to be in the software than some kind of issue with a batch of components. Realistically, without a selection of cars, some serious diagnostic kit and a rolling road, I can't see anyone here (me included) being able to do more than speculate from the comfort of a keyboard.

I'd be seriously hacked off if I'd bought of the 'problem' cars on the strength of a test drive in a vehicle without this issue & my dealer's best response was to tell me I needed to change the way I drive it.