re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I have had look at the manifold on my Panda. There is a hole in the top nearside of the manifold. It is larger than the studs and there is a spot of green paint near it on the plastic.

I do not have any idling problems with my car. It is low-down torque and throttle response that my engine is lacking in, especially if you have stopped and the engine has been allowed to idle for a few seconds. It is very easy to stall this car. Although I have become more accustomed to managing the inadequacies of the vehicle, once in a while it can really put you in a dangerous position. Pulling onto a busy roundabout in fast moving traffic is bad. Hill starts have to be a 'snatch and go' with your foot flat down, which is very bad for clutch longevity.

Someone mentioned that the weight of the car had increased, but this would not cause this sort of problem. I agree with the comment that it is the drive to reduce emissions that underlies it. I would prefer to pay extra road tax to get the performance and more miles to the gallon back!

Having said all that I do appreciate the better handling of the car, compared to my last Panda. It has gone back to the sportier feel that I used to associate with the Fiat cars of many years ago.

We need to bombard Fiat with our complaints to push them into sorting the issue out quickly, I don't want a car that has the performance of a Trevant!

I am going to post this on the Panda section as well.

David

PS: If anybody is really interested, I have already been in touch with a performance testing firm and could put both my new Panda and the 09 one that my daughter now has on their rolling road to get an accurate comparison.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

David Bliss said:

PS: If anybody is really interested, I have already been in touch with a performance testing firm and could put both my new Panda and the 09 one that my daughter now has on their rolling road to get an accurate comparison.

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Will be very interesting to see the comparison results!

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Took it in today but they could not find any faults and they reckon there is no stud missing on manifold.It was ironic that it ran OK today.It maybe thats how the 1.2runs with current ECU settings.Maybe Fiat will do an update soon.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Our Panda is booked in for the third time. Fiat Customer Services have asked for the ECU data to be read and sent back to Fiat for analysis(?). Again they have said over the phone that they are working to produce a fix, but have not responded to my request to put this in writing!

I have decided to put both the new Panda and my daughters 09 Panda on a rolling road to get readouts comparing the performances.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

The car went into the Dealer yesterday for a complete analysis. The comment on the sheet I was given was 'Vehicle driving will differ to the previous Panda due to the new emission limits on this vehicle'.

Fiat Customer services say on the phone that they know of the problem and are working to find a fix. In writing they don't acknowledge that the difference in driving response is a problem at all!

I am putting both cars on the rolling road to get my own figures, and will continue to complain that is a safety issue not just a nuisance.

Just got interrupted by a phone call from Customer Services. They are now saying they can't do anything and that I will just have to take the car back to the dealer and say I am not satisfied. When I asked about the performance of the sports version they just said that it had higher emissions, and so it goes better. I did point out that even if the car has lower emissions its petrol consumption is poorer that the older version!

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

what engine and where are you located?

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

The engine is the 1.2 Fire. We are in south Norfolk.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

If we were closer you could drove mine and I would drive yours.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Does the car do this all the time or at random? The wife said it was bad this morning but I have just been out and it is OK.When the dealer has had it they cant see the problem.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Thats just how ours is,now done 4000mls and still the same.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Come to the conclusion if you drive it hard you dont notice it,but slow starts and crawling in traffic is a problem.Maybe the ECU is set up for a sporty drive as its an S.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

The S is no different to any other 500 spec with the same engine

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

We are coming up to 2000 miles. The response has become slightly smoother in picking up but four days ago I noticed that the engine started to get a bit jerky on pick-up in traffic then, all of a sudden it started to surge, it revs up then shuts down again. The petrol consumption is not particularly good, the other day I gave it a fairly good wringing and kept the revs between 3500 and 5000, driving a bit like a lunatic for about 60 miles and the readout said I had done 32.9 mpg for the trip (this readout seems to give figures about 3mpg above what you actually get). The dealer had the throttle body off to check for oil (there was none). Occassionally when accelerating I can still feel that there are slight steps in the acceleration, and the occasional slight miss. In 50 000 miles our 09 Panda never missed a beat. The other day my daughter accidentally pulled away in second in the 09 car, you would never do that in the new one. When she drives the new car she finds that it is very prone to stalling. I have found that sometimes, in traffic, it will not slow down under engine braking when you change down from second to first, and it has occasionally speeded up instead. It is inconsistent and can catch you out.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

To be fair if you've only done 2k miles the engine is barely run in.....

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

We are coming up to 2000 miles. The response has become slightly smoother in picking up but four days ago I noticed that the engine started to get a bit jerky on pick-up in traffic then, all of a sudden it started to surge, it revs up then shuts down again. The petrol consumption is not particularly good, the other day I gave it a fairly good wringing and kept the revs between 3500 and 5000, driving a bit like a lunatic for about 60 miles and the readout said I had done 32.9 mpg for the trip (this readout seems to give figures about 3mpg above what you actually get). The dealer had the throttle body off to check for oil (there was none). Occassionally when accelerating I can still feel that there are slight steps in the acceleration, and the occasional slight miss. In 50 000 miles our 09 Panda never missed a beat. The other day my daughter accidentally pulled away in second in the 09 car, you would never do that in the new one. When she drives the new car she finds that it is very prone to stalling. I have found that sometimes, in traffic, it will not slow down under engine braking when you change down from second to first, and it has occasionally speeded up instead. It is inconsistent and can catch you out.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Taking it to a Fiat service dealer next week see if they can do anything.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

View attachment Rolling road results.PDF

Yesterday I took my new Panda and my daughter's 09 Panda to be tested on a rolling road so that we could compare the performance of the two. I decided to do this because of the problems we and others are having with the throttle response of the new car when pulling away.

The graph shows that the torque of the old car is better from tick-over up to over 3500 revs. Looking at the AFR the old car seems to do better and be 'greener' than the new one (a lower figure is bad).

Because of the flat spot it has at low revs, the new car cannot pull away immediately on the rollers, hence its readings do not start immediately.

Up to the speed limit this graph shows that the 09 car will always be in front, and will, I believe, be greener.

The operator of the rolling road testing station, who specializes in high performance racing cars, was so taken with the contrast between the two cars that he intends to write an article about it for the Motor Sport magazine. He also test drove both cars on the road, taking the new one out first. When he came back with the 09 car he had a smile from ear to ear, and commented that they were like chalk and cheese, the older car being significantly better. What have Fiat done? The drive to reduce emissions, which does not seem to me to have worked, has ruined the drive-ability of the car.

Fiat just tell us that there is nothing they can do, we just have to adapt our driving technique to suit the car. Even if you are a very good, adaptable driver it is still going to be a pig to drive. There are plenty of others complaining about the same problem and I am convinced that it is going to cause accidents when someone cannot get the car to pull away at a busy junction or roundabout is going to be hit from behind.

Comments from the technically minded would be welcome.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

But the 500 isn't even run in.... I think you need to be comparing it to a 500 first of all and one of similar mileage too

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

David Bliss said:

Comments from the technically minded would be welcome.

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Seems like nothing a remap wouldn't cure :devil: I'd say it's been programed to look green on the NEDC, but like Maxi says it really needs to be fully run in (~10k miles) to make the comparison fair. This seems to be a common theme for new cars, as manufactures tweek them to get ever better economy, initial performance/economy suffers.

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

If you read my post you will see that the car is a Panda not a 500, they both have the same engine and people with either of these cars are grumbling about the same problem. It is nothing to do with not being run in, The car has been back to the dealers twice for checking and remapping and is still as bad. Even if the throttle response was sorted the ridiculously low torque would not help.

After the last visit to the dealer Customer services rang me again. This time they were not being conciliating and just told me that there was nothing they could do to sort it, whereas before they had been saying that they were working to produce a fix.