gazz_bee said:

Interesting there are changes in max CO, min/max fast idle rpm and oil temperature thresholds for pre-2013 and post 2013 Fiat 500.

Also Ypsilson, Ka and Punto with completely different compliance figures.

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Indeed. The 1.2 engine in the 500 started off with 119g/km of CO2, then dropped to 110g/km and then increased to 113g/km. Thing is, the increase appeared to happen before these problems came to light and there's been no CO2 change on cars registered this year from those in 2013, which don't appear to have a problem.

The Panda also seems to be affected, but it has (and always has in the current shape) a CO2 of 120g/km for the 1.2. Partly because it does without Start/Stop which the 500 has.

In short, it doesn't seem that the changes Fiat have made have been to reduce CO2 emissions and having seen several 14 and 64 plate 500s happily going round the M25 on my 200 mile round trip this weekend, I get the distinct impression that the problem is only making itself known (to the point of being a problem) in some cars. The ones I saw were nearly all 1.2's as I could see the exhaust backbox on them, which the TwinAir's don't have. I also pulled over a couple of times and wrote down the reg numbers so I could check the DVLA site for the engine fitted.

It's very odd, although I'd agree that the worst part is Fiat's lack of public intention to furnish anyone with the facts and to resolve the problem for those who currently have cars which they can't use. The statement not being visible on the BBC website suggests someone a bit more important than the hopeless UK arm of Fiat might now have sat up and paid attention, although if they were as coordinated as they should be, this would've happened months ago. It's definitely given my confidence in them a knock. First time in 10 years that I've actually said to a friend 'I wouldn't buy one if I was you'. So well done Fiat - top work!

babyferrari said:

...... Does this mean that cars that have been remapped will most likely fail the MOT? ......

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As I said up-thread, I "re-mapped" a Mini by boring out the engine and fitting a road/rally camshaft plus a big carburetta. It was a 1992 Mini.

When new emissions standards came into the MOT, they applied these limits and mine was way out of spec, whereas it had been fine before they applied these limits.

I had to de-tune the engine to get it to pass.

All the best,
Mick.

306maxi said:

Yet still you promised to censor the words of someone who actually drove a euro 6 1.2 and reported their findings.....

Perhaps if the discussion was allowed to be two sided then there's be less confusion?

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With the greatest respect, driving one for a short test drive doesn't give you any valid information. It's clear people are having a issue, but not everybody. So unless you have driven one of the cars affected, I can't see how a test drive can help offer any real insight or offer a second side. Clearly not all cars are affected, most people accept that and that is the second side.

Funny thing is all this carry on for emissions, I'd rather pay road tax and have a way better performing car,
Wonder if we left the EU none of this euro 5/6 would be applicable?

poggy said:

With the greatest respect, driving one for a short test drive doesn't give you any valid information. It's clear people are having a issue, but not everybody. So unless you have driven one of the cars affected, I can't see how a test drive can help offer any real insight or offer a second side. Clearly not all cars are affected, most people accept that and that is the second side.

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With the greatest respect you're missing the point......

People were saying that it was all cars and that it was an inherent fault due to the design.

Being able to drive one car and say that it's OK is valid information.

It is clear that people are having issues, but not everyone and that is the key, the course of action to fix an inherent fault is different to that which you'd take to fix a number of cars which are faulty.

It had already been accepted that it was not all cars a long way back. So it was two sided already.

poggy said:

It had already been accepted that it was not all cars a long way back. So it was two sided already.

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You say that..... But just a week ago one of the main protagonists was blaming the induction manifold being too long and prior to that it was the VVT head....... To my knowledge the induction side of the engine hasn't changed.

This shows why it's important to have a two sided discussion.....

I don't really understand what you are trying to show though, people have said they haven't got a problem with new cars and other says they have. So other than adding another vote for not all cars having the issue based on a test drive, what is it that the information will provide. Some people even said that it is not all the time, so a test drive won't even really confirm that the car you drove doesn't have the issue in other circumstances.

I am just trying to understand why you feel you are being moderated and what it is you are trying to show with a test drive and how that will solve the issue for the people affected ?.

As for the suggestions of VVT & Intake, that is just one of the other suggestions, it has not been accepted as the problem. The reality is there is a problem which Fiat will have to deal with and come up with a solution.

My point is that if the issue is inherent (ie it happens with all cars) then no amount of swapping components is going to help anybody, Fiat are suggesting that it's a characteristic of the car (which it isn't) and are therefore refusing to try and fix the issue.

If you prove that some cars are fine then it's on Fiat to find out what the difference is and change it!

I see where you are coming from, so you have you sent this information to Fiat in order to put weight behind the argument that they need to fix it as not all cars are the same.

It will be interesting to see if they reply or continue to just deny it, but not being a owner they are probably not even obliged to record it as a complaint.

of course I haven't sent this information to Fiat. They won't take the word of some person on a forum.

The sad thing is that Watchdog have played right into Fiats trap and portrayed it as an issue which is characteristic of the car, the inference that Fiat can made is that it's tough titties and they're nit able to alter this.

The fact that they have built many 1.2's in that time which DON'T perform like this says otherwise.

If it was my car they'd have it in bits comparing it to a car which was fine, everything from the fueling system, engine, engine ecu, exhaust, induction system, wiring, throttle system and so on would be tested PROPERLY.

Then when they'd fixed it and bodged the car back together I'd complain, ask for a new car and get one.

I never lost a fight with Fiat while in warranty

Mick F said:

As I said up-thread, I "re-mapped" a Mini by boring out the engine and fitting a road/rally camshaft plus a big carburetta. It was a 1992 Mini.



When new emissions standards came into the MOT, they applied these limits and mine was way out of spec, whereas it had been fine before they applied these limits.



I had to de-tune the engine to get it to pass.



All the best,

Mick.

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But isn't there a bit of a difference between doing substantial changes like you did to what would be done by a re-map of the ECU. I don't have a 1.2 but if I did the first thing I would be doing right now would be booking it in for a re-map. Can't really see a downside as it will either cure the problem or not and is entirely reversible in any case. Maybe if I did have a car with the problem I might see it differently but it has to be worth exploring a solution.

I wouldn't loose either, I rejected car from them once and got a new one and loan one while I was waiting for it.

You have still confused me a little bit, if Fiat won't listen to you or other people on the forum, what was the post for that you felt was being moderated ?.

Off topic (sorry JR!)

But is it too early to say "Welcome back, Maxi?"

snes said:

But is it too early to say "Welcome back, Maxi?"

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Has he been somewhere?

babyferrari said:

But isn't there a bit of a difference between doing substantial changes like you did to what would be done by a re-map of the ECU.

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My point by illustrating the problems I had, is that if you re-map an engine, something has to change.

If the emissions are set at a certain level, and you change the engine's fuel/air requirements to get more power, you could put it out of tollerance for the MOT.

Remember, Euro6 is a new standard. If you re-map a Euro6 compliant engine, so it conforms to Euro5 (for instance), it cannot pass a Euro6 emissions test.

I may be wrong here, so if I am, I'll wind my neck in, but maybe I'm not wrong, and a re-map would be basically illegal.

Hopefully someone will back me up ...... or put me down!

Regards,
Mick.

JTD_Liam said:

Aww, poor Fiat, my heart bleeds that they've got to work for their customers - I originally emailed them over a week ago, which you would know if you'd bothered to check my earlier posts. They followed it up with a generic 'please supply your VIN, registration number' etc even though I said it wasn't my car I was talking about.

I replied at the the start of the week, they didn't reply, so I sent the final email yesterday morning. I hardly think that's being impatient.

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I did read your reply, I've been following this thread for a while now. I still stand by my comment regarding your email to them a few days ago, given how busy they will be following the Watchdog report. Although a generic response to your first email is indeed bad craic

JTD_Liam said:

Sometimes I think its no wonder that long-term helpful members leave this forum, because when you genuinely try to get answers for other forum members (afterall I don't even own a 1.2 engine, as my signature shows) all you get is sarcastic comments and a take-take mentality from a couple of smart-arses.

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If this was directed at me, Please drop me a P/M if you feel i've been somewhat unhelpful or sarcastic and i'll discuss this with you. I certainly don't feel like i've done any wrong here, but i'll apologize right now if you feel i'm being sarcastic or a smart-arse, it wasn't the intention at all.

I'm all for freedom of opinion, and i'm certainly NOT backing up Fiat here, I'm in the same boat as everyone else on this issue and i'm keen to see a resolution

I wonder if somehow as its only on certain cars not all if something has got past quality control ,a sensor perhaps ,which in the coming months will show as a recall without the acceptance of a fault by Fiat, which has only affected certain vin numbers ,time will tell but for those with the problem i hope the fix is sooner than later for you all.

brickfoot said:

I did read your reply, I've been following this thread for a while now. I still stand by my comment regarding your email to them a few days ago, given how busy they will be following the Watchdog report. Although a generic response to your first email is indeed bad craic

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It's the whole episode that annoyed me about Fiat. The original generic response now seems to be a blatant stalling tactic to prevent them having to deal with the issue. They've still not replied even now. I don't care how busy they are - a week and a half to get a reply from a major company is not on.

brickfoot said:

If this was directed at me, Please drop me a P/M if you feel i've been somewhat unhelpful or sarcastic and i'll discuss this with you. I certainly don't feel like i've done any wrong here, but i'll apologize right now if you feel i'm being sarcastic or a smart-arse, it wasn't the intention at all.

I'm all for freedom of opinion, and i'm certainly NOT backing up Fiat here, I'm in the same boat as everyone else on this issue and i'm keen to see a resolution

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I'd be lying if I said your post helped, but I've felt like it for quite a while about a number of threads on the Forum, so it was aimed at a collective of people or issues rather than you specifically.

The like/dislike buttons need removing from this forum as people hit dislike without explaining themselves, which gets peoples backs up, and others use the like button for helpful posts, which makes the original 'thanks' button redundant. These two buttons have combined with the number of dismissive newbies with a take-take mentality to make this a less pleasant place than it once was.

Anyway I'm taking this too far off topic so I'll leave it at that & hope that things start to change for the better.

Some ECU's "learn" your driving style. I haven't a clue if this applies to the 500 but that could explain the differences?

Mine gets better by the day. Now up to 800 mixed miles. Minor roads, B roads, A roads and motorway. A 300 mile trip tomorrow.

I've not driven it like I stole it but it's had a few bursts of full throttle and 6k rev's. I know you don't run new engines in but I do believe you need to bed the piston rings in (to stop oil consumption later in life) and loosen the engine up. Don't miss construe that, I always treat my cars with a high level of mechanical sympathy (can't be said of the ones I don't own