Thank you for that, it is of interest if the same 1.2 engine causes the same issues in the KA or not, if not then Fiat have a lot to answer for (well they do anyway, but you know what I mean lol).
Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report
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Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report
Thank you for that, it is of interest if the same 1.2 engine causes the same issues in the KA or not, if not then Fiat have a lot to answer for (well they do anyway, but you know what I mean lol).
Well I’ve now had the 1.2 500S for 9 days and put around 700 miles on it. I’m very happy with it but here are my thoughts on the specific issue about hill starts.
We’ve just had a 200 mile trip through Mid and North Wales, so a few hill’s
I specifically sought out some steep(ish) hills to try some hill starts, maybe 1 in 4 being the best I could find.
The outcome being (IMHO) that this is a bit of a non-event. Yes it’ probably trickier than it needs to be, mine has the hill hold system which works great, but it’s absolute nonsense to suggest that the 1.2 can’t do hill starts without cooking the clutch. In fact it behaves in a very similar way to a Toyota Avensis D4D (a 2.2 litre diesel) I had a couple of years ago. If it bogs down you can bury your foot in the carpet but the engine management simply refuses to put more fuel in there. Why would it if it can’t be burnt. I’m sure a tweak to the software is required to make it a little easier. The margin between bogging down and it reving too high is narrow.
I say again though, it’s no big deal and overall it’s a great car/engine.
When I bought it I drove it back to back with a VW Up 75bhp, I’ve also driven the Skoda version on holiday for a few hundred miles. The Fiat engine is more refined, although I quite liked the grumbly 3 cylinder noise from the VW. The VW is probably more flexible but from what I could determine there’s not a lot in it.
Oh and I really can’t be bothered to watch the nonsense that Watchdog produce.
We’ve just had a 200 mile trip through Mid and North Wales, so a few hill’s
I specifically sought out some steep(ish) hills to try some hill starts, maybe 1 in 4 being the best I could find.
The outcome being (IMHO) that this is a bit of a non-event. Yes it’ probably trickier than it needs to be, mine has the hill hold system which works great, but it’s absolute nonsense to suggest that the 1.2 can’t do hill starts without cooking the clutch. In fact it behaves in a very similar way to a Toyota Avensis D4D (a 2.2 litre diesel) I had a couple of years ago. If it bogs down you can bury your foot in the carpet but the engine management simply refuses to put more fuel in there. Why would it if it can’t be burnt. I’m sure a tweak to the software is required to make it a little easier. The margin between bogging down and it reving too high is narrow.
I say again though, it’s no big deal and overall it’s a great car/engine.
When I bought it I drove it back to back with a VW Up 75bhp, I’ve also driven the Skoda version on holiday for a few hundred miles. The Fiat engine is more refined, although I quite liked the grumbly 3 cylinder noise from the VW. The VW is probably more flexible but from what I could determine there’s not a lot in it.
Oh and I really can’t be bothered to watch the nonsense that Watchdog produce.
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Surely there must be a difference between the emissions needed for a manufacturer to gain Euro 6 and the emissions needed to pass an MOT. I thought it would be more like the official mpg test and an MOT emissions test. Is it really true that forevermore a car will gave to pass the manufacturers emissions just to get an MOT?
Peugeot have switched to the 1.2 vti and 1.0 3cyl
Yes, because there has to be some allowance for changes in emissions performance resulting from normal fair wear and tear in service.
The MOT regulations for emissions testing are somewhat complex but most modern cars must meet model-specific emissions limits supplied to VOSA by the vehicle manufacturer.
Here is some bedtime reading.
The same testing procedures and limits are applied if your vehicle is ever spot checked at the roadside.
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Its not hill starts I have an issue with as I never do any.Its pulling out of junctions I have an issue with, put your foot down and nothing happens.Yesterday I did a fast start and the engine started to pulsate.It is also difficult in traffic as the engine surges.Your new car may be fine but ours is not.
This I think is what many folks are finding confusing.
We've now had over 500 posts and a watchdog investigation and we're still no further forward in understanding exactly what Fiat have changed to gain Euro6 homologation, nor why for some it's no big deal, and for others it's a rejection issue.
Someone within Fiat must know exactly what is going on here; the lack of information, obfuscation & denials from the manufacturer are to me the most disturbing and worrying aspects of this whole saga.
Put simply, it's a matter of trust, and I'd say anyone reading this thread in its entirety would now have probable cause to distrust the brand. I would no longer have confidence in ordering a new 1.2 Fiat, because there's seemingly no way of guaranteeing that I wouldn't be facing the same issues once it arrived, short of an extended test drive in the specific car I would be buying. I'd also be concerned that if it did turn out to have driveability issues in the future, I'd be met with the same stonewalling response and lack of resolution from Fiat and its dealerships that many folks have reported both here and elsewhere.
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ahmett
Prominent member
test drive one already!
Yet still you promised to censor the words of someone who actually drove a euro 6 1.2 and reported their findings.....
Perhaps if the discussion was allowed to be two sided then there's be less confusion?
Pulling out of junctions is no problem. Smooth or go for it mode.
We test drove 5 1.2's in differing trim level's before we ended up with the S and a Lounge. They all, apart from a Dual logic, drove fine. One in particular felt quicker than the others though. You'll see I do say the throttle response is not perfect but certainly nothing to make either of them a chore to drive, far from it.
Oh and I lied, I couldn't resist going to the Watchdog link. What a pile of muppits
Forensic mechanic? don't make me laugh. They're obviously genious' plugged a laptop in to the OBD socket and got some pretty pictures. The woman reporter stalled it (on purpose) and then proceeded to execute a perfect hill start.
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One moderator is enough on this forum thank you very much.
Pulling out of junctions is no problem. Smooth or go for it mode.
We test drove 5 1.2's in differing trim level's before we ended up with the S and a Lounge. They all, apart from a Dual logic, drove fine. One in particular felt quicker than the others though. You'll see I do say the throttle response is not perfect but certainly nothing to make either of them a chore to drive, far from it.
Oh and I lied, I couldn't resist going to the Watchdog link. What a pile of muppits
People won't want to acknowledge what you say because it might mean that the issue isn't inherent in all euro 6 1.2's......
No, I said this was an important issue and promised to moderate the thread if folks went seriously off topic or stated facts without evidence. Posts by folks who'd owned or driven a Euro6 500 and weren't having any problems (including yours) are just as useful and carry just as much weight as posts from folks who find their cars almost undriveable.
What I won't accept is people dismissing this issue just because their own experience of the Euro6 500 is positive. There are too many people who are very disappointed with their expensive new purchase who are being told by both Fiat and their dealer that there's nothing wrong with their car and that it's just down to the way they drive, when clearly there is something going on that's affecting at least a proportion of the latest 1.2 owners. They don't need to log on here and get the same dismissive response.
Right now, we just don't know, and since Fiat are keeping tight-lipped about what exactly has been changed, we've still not got anything concrete to work with. It's possible (and I freely acknowledge this is pure speculation with absolutely no evidence whatsoever) that production tolerances may mean the changes affect certain individual cars more than others.
It might be helpful if two Euro6 owners with different perspectives on this issue could drive each other's cars.
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You overstepped your mark.
At the start yes, I may have been dismissive, but it's only sensible to question things when it's only one or two people complaining.
Recently we've had ridiculous suggestions such as the intake manifold being too long.
You yourself have admitted that we don't know what's changed. If this discussion had focused on that then perhaps we'd be further along and have actually helped people rather than being no better than the laughable Watchdog segment.
At the start yes, I may have been dismissive, but it's only sensible to question things when it's only one or two people complaining.
Recently we've had ridiculous suggestions such as the intake manifold being too long.
You yourself have admitted that we don't know what's changed. If this discussion had focused on that then perhaps we'd be further along and have actually helped people rather than being no better than the laughable Watchdog segment.
Apparently there is some problem with the 1.2 engine, but as no one (not even Fiat) have a solution, why not give this a try:
http://www.fiat500owners.com/forum/...on-forum/7598-500-madness-gopedal-review.html
Keep in mind that with the Go Pedal there is a 30 day money back guarantee in case it doesn't work.
If anyone already test this out with the specific 1.2 engine, kindly report back.
It's not going to make any difference. All it does is give more throttle opening for a smaller throttle input. It still only gives 100% at the top end though......
Won't make a blind bit of difference here.
Won't make a blind bit of difference here.
:yeahthat:
Actually it might make it worse. Several folks have reported that the car gets bogged down if the accelerator is pressed too far when pulling away. This device will only exacerbate that effect.
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Thanks jr. Not quite bedtime yet so haven't done my homework yet. Does this mean that cars that have been remapped will most likely fail the MOT? This Euro 6 issue must have a lot to do with the mapping. Can't help thinking a plug and play remap has to be worth investigating as it can be undone when MOT time comes round. Still a problem at a roadside check but really can't see that happening too often.
Interesting there are changes in max CO, min/max fast idle rpm and oil temperature thresholds for pre-2013 and post 2013 Fiat 500.
Also Ypsilson, Ka and Punto with completely different compliance figures.