re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
They don't have the same engine though.......
They don't have the same engine though.......
Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report
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Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I have to say that seeing the power and torque figures I don't really see the problem?
Firstly you'll notice that the newer engine is more powerful, this is because it's got a vvt head which means higher compression I have the same engine as your old Panda in my Panda 4x4, my experience is that it feels torquier lower down than my 500 which has the same engine as your new Panda.
Though they have the same displacement and come from the same family, they're still different engines. You need to compare apples with apples and whilst you have two apples one is a Bramley and the other is a granny smith. They're both apples, but they're slightly different types of apples.
I have to say that seeing the power and torque figures I don't really see the problem?
Firstly you'll notice that the newer engine is more powerful, this is because it's got a vvt head which means higher compression I have the same engine as your old Panda in my Panda 4x4, my experience is that it feels torquier lower down than my 500 which has the same engine as your new Panda.
Though they have the same displacement and come from the same family, they're still different engines. You need to compare apples with apples and whilst you have two apples one is a Bramley and the other is a granny smith. They're both apples, but they're slightly different types of apples.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Ours has done over 4000mls and its the same so I dont think it will change with more miles on the clock.I would say to anyone thinking of buying a new 500 with the 1.2 engine go for a long test drive first with plenty of stop start driving.
Ours has done over 4000mls and its the same so I dont think it will change with more miles on the clock.I would say to anyone thinking of buying a new 500 with the 1.2 engine go for a long test drive first with plenty of stop start driving.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
My 500 is nothing like it was at 4000 miles. I'm sorry but I've driven about 56,000 miles more than you in my 500 and never found it to be an issue.
My 500 is nothing like it was at 4000 miles. I'm sorry but I've driven about 56,000 miles more than you in my 500 and never found it to be an issue.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I wonder if the current production cars have the same mapping though?
Whilst my car is undoubtedly freer now than at 4000 miles, I don't recall ever having the kind of issue that's been posted about here, not even when the car was very new and tight.
I wonder if the current production cars have the same mapping though?
Whilst my car is undoubtedly freer now than at 4000 miles, I don't recall ever having the kind of issue that's been posted about here, not even when the car was very new and tight.
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Obviously this is possible, but imho this mirrors the difference between my 500 and Panda.
When did you become a moderator?!?!?!?!?
Obviously this is possible, but imho this mirrors the difference between my 500 and Panda.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I wondered how long it would take before someone noticed
I see exactly the same difference between my 500 and Panda; the Panda is in consequence slightly more comfortable to drive in town - but I've never noticed a definite flat spot in the 500's acceleration profile.
I wondered how long it would take before someone noticed
I see exactly the same difference between my 500 and Panda; the Panda is in consequence slightly more comfortable to drive in town - but I've never noticed a definite flat spot in the 500's acceleration profile.
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Everyone's idea of flats spot is different though, plus if it's only done 4k miles......
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I don't mean a factory ECU reflash I mean a full custom remap. The performance is clearly in the engine, it's just that FIAT don't want to let it out for emissions reasons (even if your tests show the opposite effect).
I don't mean a factory ECU reflash I mean a full custom remap. The performance is clearly in the engine, it's just that FIAT don't want to let it out for emissions reasons (even if your tests show the opposite effect).
David Bliss
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Auditt,
Have you looked at the comparison graph I posted after getting my old and new Pandas tested on a rolling road?
The new one is definitely not as 'green' as the old one, which we had already deduced from its petrol consumption. The torque is terribly low, it isn't until you get to 3500 revs that the new car produces more torque than the old one. The new one couldn't spin the rollers up at the start, where the old one ticked over in fifth gear at idle running the rollers quite happily.
Auditt,
Have you looked at the comparison graph I posted after getting my old and new Pandas tested on a rolling road?
The new one is definitely not as 'green' as the old one, which we had already deduced from its petrol consumption. The torque is terribly low, it isn't until you get to 3500 revs that the new car produces more torque than the old one. The new one couldn't spin the rollers up at the start, where the old one ticked over in fifth gear at idle running the rollers quite happily.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I vaguely remember my 500 being similar to this before it was run in; particularly ascending hills there was sometimes a noticeable "surge" above about 3krpm, which improved as it got older. FWIW I seem to remember it still loosening off somewhere around 10k miles. I never saw below 48.5MPG indicated- which IIRC was give or take 45 "real" MPG
I can't see why FIAT would have remapped the new 500s/Pandas to reduce emissions- I know the 500 has been 30 quid (or 35 quid as it was) tax since launch and I thought the "old" eco pandas were 30 quid too?
Could it be Euro 6 at work here? Though I'd be surprised if an engine as old as the FIRE unit would get through with just a remap.
David, a sudden thought- have you checked gear ratios (inc final drive) for the new versus old? Seems pretty poor for a city car; would have thought they would want as much torque/"go" through 1st and 2nd.
I vaguely remember my 500 being similar to this before it was run in; particularly ascending hills there was sometimes a noticeable "surge" above about 3krpm, which improved as it got older. FWIW I seem to remember it still loosening off somewhere around 10k miles. I never saw below 48.5MPG indicated- which IIRC was give or take 45 "real" MPG
I can't see why FIAT would have remapped the new 500s/Pandas to reduce emissions- I know the 500 has been 30 quid (or 35 quid as it was) tax since launch and I thought the "old" eco pandas were 30 quid too?
Could it be Euro 6 at work here? Though I'd be surprised if an engine as old as the FIRE unit would get through with just a remap.
David, a sudden thought- have you checked gear ratios (inc final drive) for the new versus old? Seems pretty poor for a city car; would have thought they would want as much torque/"go" through 1st and 2nd.
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re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I also think the cars need to be run in. My 500 is soooooo much more spritely nowadays than when new.
I also think the cars need to be run in. My 500 is soooooo much more spritely nowadays than when new.
David Bliss
Member
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Hi guys I can't see why you think the hamster is alive while he lies dead on his back in his cage, but the wheel is still going round.
Gearing:- look at the test. Going by feel the new car feels lower geared although it is on larger (14') tyres. At 5130 rpm the old version was doing 101 mph, at 6303 rpm (over 1000 revs more) the new one was only 5mph quicker,
As for being run in, if there is no spark of Fire its no good throwing petrol on it. Fiat have doused the flames on the engine, unless you break the speed limit the old'uns will always be in front (or, even more annoyingly, you will be holding them up).
Hi guys I can't see why you think the hamster is alive while he lies dead on his back in his cage, but the wheel is still going round.
Gearing:- look at the test. Going by feel the new car feels lower geared although it is on larger (14') tyres. At 5130 rpm the old version was doing 101 mph, at 6303 rpm (over 1000 revs more) the new one was only 5mph quicker,
As for being run in, if there is no spark of Fire its no good throwing petrol on it. Fiat have doused the flames on the engine, unless you break the speed limit the old'uns will always be in front (or, even more annoyingly, you will be holding them up).
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Now I've had a dig back through the thread- a 69hp book engine producing 76hp at c.2k miles? Not bad.
For those of you in the know, have Fiat reworked the Euro V 1.2 for the new panda/newer 500s if Auditt is having the same issues (I guess not if it's still 69hp as per website?)- the brochure I've got here for the 500 is listing peak torque at 3000. I'm still suspicious that it's some Euro VI tomfoolery going on early.
In fairness that does look quite peaky for this sort of engine. I wonder if that's why Fiat have shortened the gearing to try and help.
As UFI says, could one of the tuning companies flash the older engine map onto the new panda assuming the engines are similar enough?
If it's a 2009 Panda won't it have the Euro V/500 type1.2 Maxi? I can't remember when the 1.2 in the Panda swapped to the 500 type- I thought it was with the intro of the Eco models?
Now I've had a dig back through the thread- a 69hp book engine producing 76hp at c.2k miles? Not bad.
For those of you in the know, have Fiat reworked the Euro V 1.2 for the new panda/newer 500s if Auditt is having the same issues (I guess not if it's still 69hp as per website?)- the brochure I've got here for the 500 is listing peak torque at 3000. I'm still suspicious that it's some Euro VI tomfoolery going on early.
In fairness that does look quite peaky for this sort of engine. I wonder if that's why Fiat have shortened the gearing to try and help.
As UFI says, could one of the tuning companies flash the older engine map onto the new panda assuming the engines are similar enough?
If it's a 2009 Panda won't it have the Euro V/500 type1.2 Maxi? I can't remember when the 1.2 in the Panda swapped to the 500 type- I thought it was with the intro of the Eco models?
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Hi guys I can't see why you think the hamster is alive while he lies dead on his back in his cage, but the wheel is still going round.
Gearing:- look at the test. Going by feel the new car feels lower geared although it is on larger (14') tyres. At 5130 rpm the old version was doing 101 mph, at 6303 rpm (over 1000 revs more) the new one was only 5mph quicker,
As for being run in, if there is no spark of Fire its no good throwing petrol on it. Fiat have doused the flames on the engine, unless you break the speed limit the old'uns will always be in front (or, even more annoyingly, you will be holding them up).
Just out of curiosity, if you've already made your mind up then why ask the opinions of others? My 500 was faaaaaar slower when new than it is now, but what would I know having driven a 500 for 60k miles.......
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Eco models were still 60bhp variants - IIRC lower rolling resistance tyres and thinner oil were the eco tweaks. Also the posted rolling road results show a 10ish BHP difference between the 2009 and 2014 cars so would correlate with the 2009 model still having the older 1.2 lump.
As far as I can gather the Panda got the 69BHP engine sometime between September and December 2010.
The torque curve is interesting though and demonstrates why I found my 1.2 EuroIV Panda more driveable from low revs than my 1.2 EuroV 500.
Eco models were still 60bhp variants - IIRC lower rolling resistance tyres and thinner oil were the eco tweaks. Also the posted rolling road results show a 10ish BHP difference between the 2009 and 2014 cars so would correlate with the 2009 model still having the older 1.2 lump.
As far as I can gather the Panda got the 69BHP engine sometime between September and December 2010.
The torque curve is interesting though and demonstrates why I found my 1.2 EuroIV Panda more driveable from low revs than my 1.2 EuroV 500.
I concur, I feel exactly the same with my Panda although the difference isn't the same with it being a 4x4. I also remember the change happening in 2010 so the dyno test isn't a fair one.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
I stand corrected
In that case, I'm with Maxi etc.
I stand corrected
In that case, I'm with Maxi etc.
re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues
Only in so far as the 2009/10 eco Pandas use the 60bhp Euro4 engine. Your other observation looks right on the money to me.
What that rolling road graph is showing us is the 60bhp Euro4 engine vs the latest iteration of the 69bhp engine in the current Panda.
What it doesn't show (though it would be interesting to see) is a 4/5yr old 69bhp 500.
IMO the chances that the engine in a current production 69bhp Panda is running the same map as an early 1.2 69bhp 500 are slim indeed - so just because Maxi's car (or my 500 for that matter) hasn't got a noticeable flat spot proves absolutely nothing as far as the current crop of cars is concerned.
There are sufficient folks posting about the flat spot issue on both the 500 & Panda forums to lead me to believe there's some substance to this which prospective purchasers may want to consider before signing on the dotted line. IMO there's more going on here than the difference between a tight engine & one that's been run in.
I stand corrected
Only in so far as the 2009/10 eco Pandas use the 60bhp Euro4 engine. Your other observation looks right on the money to me.
What that rolling road graph is showing us is the 60bhp Euro4 engine vs the latest iteration of the 69bhp engine in the current Panda.
What it doesn't show (though it would be interesting to see) is a 4/5yr old 69bhp 500.
IMO the chances that the engine in a current production 69bhp Panda is running the same map as an early 1.2 69bhp 500 are slim indeed - so just because Maxi's car (or my 500 for that matter) hasn't got a noticeable flat spot proves absolutely nothing as far as the current crop of cars is concerned.
There are sufficient folks posting about the flat spot issue on both the 500 & Panda forums to lead me to believe there's some substance to this which prospective purchasers may want to consider before signing on the dotted line. IMO there's more going on here than the difference between a tight engine & one that's been run in.