Technical Hub/brakes (next questions!)

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Technical Hub/brakes (next questions!)

AndrewRL

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Sorry...my next set of questions as I try and learn my way round the car. As usual apologies if already posted (I did look) and for the possibly basic questions.

I decided that I should look at the condition of the brakes and may be replace the shoes (never looked since getting the car, they work OK but do pull to one side). I got as far as removing the wheel and central hub cover...please see photo.

Questions are:
(1) How do I now remove this central nut? I assume it needs a 20 or 21mm spanner but how do remove it? The haynes manual talks about punching out the peening :confused::confused: but I have no idea exactly what to do nor to what nor the tools required (presumably it is the bit in the photo where there has clearly been some hammering/chiselling on the side of the bolt?)

(2) Once the bolt is removed is there anything special needed to remove the hub cover to get to the brakes?

(3) When putting it all back together again, how do I lock this bolt again (presumably "re-peen"...but how? or do I need a new bolt?); or is there something easier/less destructive?

Any help gratefully received as always (please keep in as simple terms as possible).

Thanks guys (and gals :) ) :worship:
 

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1. I think it's 21mm and easiest with a socket. Your R/H side one is probably L/H thread which may be signified by slots cut into the corners of the flats. I cheat and simply turn it to break the locking peen as you should and probably will have to use new nuts when replacing; remember when ordering; two dissimilar nuts.
2. You might be lucky and the hub easily pulls off. It might bind a little and need some carefull leverage or hammering behind with a copper or hard nylon hammer. In the worst case you might find the bearings bind to the axle and a puller will be needed.
3. So you wll need new nuts as above and a heavy, blunt cold-chisel is what I use to give a good, sharp tap to push the inner part of the nut into the slot.

There is a bit of an art to getting them to just the right tightness.....a full subject in itself. :)
https://www.fiatforum.com/500-classic/451657-any-trick-removing-front-bearings.html
All the best, Peter
 
Thanks Peter

I'll look for some new nuts (seems an odd construction given that brakes are probably checked on a reasonably frequent basis).

Just to check...with the new nuts, do I need to "peen" when I put them back. If so, how is this done?

I realised the photo was v small so attach a larger version (hopefully)

Cheers

Andrew
 

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Once you have the correct tightness (not very tight) with an almost imperceptible amount of "play", align a broad cold chisel or similar with the slot in the axle and on that concave section of the nut, beyond the flats, and hammer the chisel smartly. it is a bit of a knack to do it neatly and first time, but you don't want to go hammering wildly;it doesn't take much of a nick to keep it in place.
 
Ah interesting I was just thinking about this whole process.
Without meaning to hijack, is it a little simpler on an early 63 model D? I recall reading in the manual that only the later models had the peening. Also need to do some brake work!
Hope you work yours out Andrew!
 
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Without meaning to hijack, is it a little simpler on an early 63 model D?

I am not worthy to enter into the rarified and esoteric world of the D and N.:D
All that I think I know is that you are likely to have standard thread on both axles if original. The locking method is different and maybe you can say if it is a split-pin?
I do remember that the tightening method for the early 500s is different. I think that to do it properly and by the book is less complicated than it sounds in the manual in both cases; but the manual is best consulted.
 
Anyone have any suggestions or tricks for getting the retention springs back on other than brute force? The method explained by the haynes manual did not work out for me on my rear brakes, so I have both new shoes in place and I'm trying to pull the replacement springs back into place on the right shoe... got one on but managed to snap the hook tool I was using to pull the second spring on.
 
Anyone have any suggestions or tricks for getting the retention springs back on other than brute force? The method explained by the haynes manual did not work out for me on my rear brakes, so I have both new shoes in place and I'm trying to pull the replacement springs back into place on the right shoe... got one on but managed to snap the hook tool I was using to pull the second spring on.

It's a pain and a bit of a faff but I found the way that worked for me was to put the springs onto both brake shoes and then fit the two shoes into the drum as an assembly. You end up putting one in place and then using the other one as a lever to get it onto the pin and in place. Be careful to not trap your hand though.
 
Some people recommend using a cable-tie to hold the cylinder pistons in place.
I do as Damian says but fit the L/H shoe to the bottom and top and on its pin, then push the spring behind the bottom tab and get the bottom of the R/H into place. Finally, using various bits of body including all seven of my hands :eek: to hold all this in place, the final, breathtaking push is as Damian says, to force the R/H shoe onto the pin and into the piston slot in one movement without damaging the rubber boot of the piston.
It's harder than it sounds :D ;) and you need strong hands but I find it easier than stretching the springs although you can get a tool to do that for you.
When all in place I carefully tap everything square and parallel to the backplate with a soft hammer whilst holding the shoes down and similarly give a gentle tap against the friction material to push the adjusters to their maximum "in" position to help when refitting the drums.
Good luck and have some sticking plasters ready.:bang:
 
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Thanks Steve (again). I should have asked for a socket/spanner as I happily went to Halfords to get a 21mm socket etc only to find, when I got home, that the nut is not 21mm :mad::D

Anyway, car is up with front wheels off and waiting to see if I can get to the next stage and what I may find underneath (look out for the questions!). I'm on holiday from Friday for a week so it may all have to wait a while.

I will order new front hub nuts ready for when I get back - looking at parts websites, should I also get new washers (seem to have a "tab" that fits into a groove?) and, as I plan to do the rear wheels too, rear hub nuts? Any other suggestions for parts that are usually replaced while doing this while I am at it (I have the obvious major parts).

...oh and plenty of plasters too :eek:
 
Some people recommend using a cable-tie to hold the cylinder pistons in place.
I do as Damian says but fit the L/H shoe to the bottom and top and on its pin, then push the spring behind the bottom tab and get the bottom of the R/H into place. Finally, using various bits of body including all seven of my hands :eek: to hold all this in place, the final, breathtaking push is as Damian says, to force the R/H shoe onto the pin and into the piston slot in one movement without damaging the rubber boot of the piston.
It's harder than it sounds :D ;) and you need strong hands but I find it easier than stretching the springs although you can get a tool to do that for you.
When all in place I carefully tap everything square and parallel to the backplate with a soft hammer whilst holding the shoes down and similarly give a gentle tap against the friction material to push the adjusters to their maximum "in" position to help when refitting the drums.
Good luck and have some sticking plasters ready.:bang:


I found that placing the pointy end of an awl into the hole of the shoe that is already placed on the backplate, then putting the hook of the spring on the shaft of the awl, then levering it in worked really well for the top spring. I already had the bottom spring in at that point, but it might work for that as well. Then I had it all together and realized I need to change the piston, the rubber is all cracked, so now its all taken apart again :spin:
 
Progressed reasonably well with this and managed to get the new brake shoes on the front with no damaged hands (y) (I followed Peter's tip but used a G clamp with wood to gently hold on the left shoe while I struggled with the right).

My concern is doing up the hub nuts at the front - I have a torque wrench that goes low enough but once the nut is on and turned back the required 30 degrees it is barely finger tight. Is that correct? I know there is the "peening" to do to fix the bolt but it seems very "untight" for something that presumably takes a lot of forces during driving/cornering. I am just worried about the hub/wheel coming off and am perhaps after some words of comfort :eek:
 
Progressed reasonably well with this and managed to get the new brake shoes on the front with no damaged hands (y) (I followed Peter's tip but used a G clamp with wood to gently hold on the left shoe while I struggled with the right).

My concern is doing up the hub nuts at the front - I have a torque wrench that goes low enough but once the nut is on and turned back the required 30 degrees it is barely finger tight. Is that correct? I know there is the "peening" to do to fix the bolt but it seems very "untight" for something that presumably takes a lot of forces during driving/cornering. I am just worried about the hub/wheel coming off and am perhaps after some words of comfort :eek:

I found like you that if you apply the correct torque and back it off it seems very loose. As I applied the torque I span the hub in the opposite direction to the tightening. I then loosened the nut and repeated this a couple of times. Once I applied the torque I then checked the hub for play and found there to be a bit. No bearing is going to do it's job properly or last very long if there is play in it so I very gently applied more torque until the play went and locked it up at this. It doesn't take much more than is quoted. Others will disagree but "my car, my rules".
 
It is a bit like the difference between art and painting by numbers. Whilst the numbers and stats are a good guide having a feel for what you are doing is best for me. I tighten the bearings until you get a very light grumble when you rotate the hub to make sure everything is seated properly then back off a little to get smooth running :)
 
You do need to tighten them to get them to seat properly. Best way to ensure they seat is to rotate the wheel while you tighten. Just hand tight, no force.

You then need to back off to allow the bearings to expand in use without binding. Backing off half a flat of the nut will be sufficient. Hopefully this helps.

Cheers, Steve
 
When built up,you may find the brake pedal very poor! No worries,drive the car forward and slam the brakes on a few times,do the same in reverse,this will allow the self adjusters to adjust,and your pedal will be perfect.
 
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