Hello all! Greetings from Maine, USA, where my father and I are the proud owners of a new-to-us 1972 500L. Short story: Dad and mom had a 72 500L when they first met. Mom passed away last year and dad moved in with me a few weeks ago. I bought him the Fiat as a surprise - something to keep his rather forgetful mind occupied and give us something to do on the weekends.

The car does need a bit of work - it doesn't run now, but turns over - and neither my father nor I have a mechanical bone in our body. We do, however, have plenty of space and my wife is pretty forgiving...

I suspect we'd like to get her running and then be able to safely drive her in a 'spirited' manner - with a focus on being able to drive her rather than have a forever project.

I'm contemplating upgrading the motor while rebuilding, which would then mean that I'm upgrading the brakes, transmission, reworking the suspension a bit, probably some of the electrical system, etc.

So here's my question: The easiest avenue seems to be to buy a pre-built motor from a company like mrfiat in the USA. We'll wind up with about 40hp, a rebuilt trans (with syncros!), disk brakes front and back, and some other bits and bobs to keep us from killing ourselves.

A less easy avenue would be to order individual parts, get a pro to do all the prep work, and then build everything ourselves. I'm tempted to go this route because I've always wanted to learn, but don't know the slightest thing about what pistons or cam shaft I'd need, or, really, even what to say to the motor-prep-eria (Can you bore this 500cc engine out to 8 cylinders/6.5 liters? That'd be swell, thanks...). Rebuilding a trans looks even more complicated... Are there (very) step by step manuals for that sort of thing for cars this old? Is there a thread for "If you want a fast car but know nothing, order exactly these parts"?

Finally, I've seen a company in the UK that swaps Subaru 2.5l motors/trans/brakes into these, and 200hp sounds awfully tempting, along with much better parts availability. The downside, obviously, is that the mail-away option isn't much of a project.

To summarize, I guess I have 2 questions: 1) Can a mechanically inept doofus and his demented father really tackle this sort of project in a reasonable amount of time or would we be better off ordering rebuilt and starting our learning with 'here's how you take out the old one and put in the new one'? 2) Is 40 hp really enough, or is 40 hp what you can squeeze out of 2 cylinders and has therefore 'been enough' until a 200 hp swap became a possibility?

If it's worth anything, we have a (professionally maintained) newer Porsche that we take to the track often, so are used to driving a rear engine/rear drive car in a 'spirited manner'. 200hp in a small rear/rear car doesn't, per se, scare me. Perhaps it should??

Thanks in advance,
Fuzzy

That's a really nice story and an excellent looking car.
I fear that your power output ambitions may be unnecessarily high but more experienced opinions will no doubt come along.
Please keep us posted.

Hi Fuzzy, welcome to the Forum. I would council taking your time, modifying these cars is straightforward and the manuals are good. If you get stuck pictures and questions on this forum will get you sorted as there are many keen owners worldwide that will help you. The internet is full of mods and parts it just depends on what you want to achieve and the depth of your pocket as building a fast(er) road car is very possible. There are a few members that contribute from the USA already and they can at least point you towards parts. Research what you want (need) and the world is your oyster!!!!

Ian.

Hi Fuzzy and welcome.

I'm sure others will give some expert answers to your questions.

Just wanted to say that a novice can work on these cars and rebuild, restore and upgrade them because I did (am doing). I have to say I had a lot of help from expert friends and needed a fairly deep pocket for extensive panelbeating and engine rebore (499 up to 595 is about the max you can do).

But the project, learning and wanting to do a good job is part of the fun.

Tim

Fuzzy,


These engines are easy to work on, but doing so as a novice is going to take you some time. The original engine in the car you bought was rated at 18 hp, so upgrading to 40+ hp is a considerable leap seeing as the car only weighs 500 kg.


I would suggest you buy a reworked engine to get your car on the road and then spend the time pulling apart your current engine to rebuild. The cylinders can be bored out to a certain extent to fit a slightly larger piston, but then you should upgrade to a 126 carb as well.


Also something to think about is if you want to keep your current (if original) transmission. The 500 transmission is non-synchronous so when down shifting you need to double clutch. The fiat 126 transmission does not have that issue.


If you are going to upgrade the engine go with a fiat 126 650cc engine at least. The 500 tranny can be mated with the engine if you buy a 126 transmission bell housing as the starter is located differently for the 126.


You can go with Mr. Fiat in Georgia, but sometimes I get better prices with Van der Laan in the Netherlands and shipping cost is not that bad from him.


Remember, if you start going crazy with the hp you have to think about brakes as the original drums fade fast unlike disc brakes. You can get conversion kits for that too, but again be ready to keep forking out the dough.


good luck.

Hi Fuzzy;
Welcome to the Forum, and congratulations on your proposed project. The 500 IS a very simple car to work on---it is basically 1950s technology.
Engine:- you can get a barrel/piston kit that will increase the engine capacity to 540cc, and only involves 'parts swapping'. To go above that capacity you will need bigger barrels (and pistons) which will involve having the crankcase machined out to accept them---652cc is absolutely as large as you can go with a 500 crank-case. To go above that capacity (and an increase to 652cc gives a surprising increase in performance) you need to start with a Fiat 126 (652cc---not the earlier 594cc 126) engine. Camshafts, carburettors, exhausts and cylinder-heads are fairly easy to up-rate.
Brakes:- I still have drum brakes (albeit the slightly larger Fiat 126 variety) on my tuned (652cc) 500, and they are perfectly adequate for the bulk of my driving. Disc FRONT brakes are a sensible up-rate--I personally can't recommend rear discs as the rear brakes just don't do enough of the work to (a) justify the cost and, (b) it becomes very easy to 'lock-up' the rears in adverse conditions.
Gearbox:- The standard 500 gearbox is known as a 'dog-clutch' box--it has NO synchromesh, you have to learn to 'double-de-clutch' on your down changes, and remember NOT to select 1st gear until the vehicle is stationary. The 126 gearbox has synchro on 2nd/3rd/and 4th, but NOT on 1st, so again, do not select 1st until the vehicle is stationary. The 500/126 starter motors and gearbox bell housings are different, and only fit onto their respective engine, BUT, the 126 bell housing and starter can be transferred over to the 500 gear-box body, allowing you to retain your original gearbox, but fitted to the 126 engine.
Wheel/tyres:- you can go up one size (from 3-1/2inx12in to 4.0inx12in by fitting EARLY Fiat 126 wheels and this will allow you to go up to 135x12 tyres---slightly increasing your final-drive ratio and putting a bit more rubber on the road.
Subaru engine:- Yes, this conversion can, and has been done but it is an extensive conversion involving transmission, cooling system and body-work---not to be undertaken lightly!
Lastly, but very importantly, what are intending to use the 500 for? If you want to have it as 'a bit of fun' machine then you can achieve this quite economically. You will be surprised, but you don't need vast horsepower to have a lot of fun in---the engine only has about1,000lb of vehicle to move around. You might be very surprised just how much attention a 500 will attract at car shows/cars 'n coffee meets--often so much that the Ferrari owners become really pissed off! Try and find a Forum member who lives in your area--we all like helping each other, and their experiences with their 500 might help to decide upon which way you go.

Hi Everyone!

First, I need to apologize for not replying sooner. I thought I would get a note in my email that someone has replied, but that doesn't appear to be the case. I thought that nobody had commented. So I apologize for the tardiness...

In good news, dad and I managed to get the engine going. We began by yelling at the car. When that didn't work we decided to google "Why isn't my f(*&ing car working?", Eventually we changed the plugs, wires, and rotor/points, and got her fired up. Yay!

Brakes seemed to work at all four wheels, so a quick replacement of a bent tie-rod, and we were on our way.

We've currently named the car "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!", which is what we said the whole time driving her in the Maine winter, surrounded by cars 3 times our size (and probably 6 times our mass). But it's been amazing. It's been a long time since I've had to double clutch, but I think it's good for the soul. As is driving at 35mph everywhere you go, finding routes to places that don't involve the highway, and basically spending the entire driving experience terrified.

Anyhow, my next question is about keeping her alive. In an ideal universe, I'd like to drive her. A lot. I think that's all the fun of owning a classic. My question is: how do you keep a car from rusting to dust when driving on salted roads. A neighbor suggested ceramic coatings (CQuartz, Opti-coat) plus a good undercoat. It's expensive but if it keeps the rust away... Anyone have any thoughts?

Second, does anyone know of a good snow/winter tire that fit a stock fiat 500 rim? Roads are plowed, so clearance isn't an issue, but sticking to the road is still preferable.

Finally, does anyone here live in Portland, Maine? I'd love to hook up and say hi, or join a club or something...

Thank you again everyone, and I promise to check back to reply sooner this time.

-Fuzzyface

So I cringed a bit when you mentioned salt on roads. These cars do not do well in rain let alone salted roads. I have an original engine and I stay to the 50-60 mph roads as well, no freeway. I have an original set of winter tires and chains that I can take a pict of and post. These are rare even in Europe. They were a barn find for me in Italy.

Here they are.

I totally understand your hesitation. It just seems a shame to drive a cool car only in the summer... I'm hoping there's a coating or something, even if it's a bit pricey, that would help keep the car from rusting.

For tires, I found some Nanking winter tires 145/70/12. Would those fit?

Thanks again.

-Benjamin

I drive my car in all kinds of weather because I share your philosophy. That means inevitably, if the car is dashed with salt it's later going to be lashed with rainwater above and below. I do avoid the worst days when I can and hose the underneath regularly and after a bad salt day catches me out.
My car has been painted underneath with POR-15, which is very resistant to wear and doesn't trap or mask rust if it restarts. Every so often I rinse rust free the turn-ups.of the wheel arches and in summer I paint on Waxoyl underseal at the edge of the floor and in the wheel arches.
Whenever I'm able to access areas, if I'm under the car or simply removing the spare wheel, I use an aerosol spray of wax in crevices and rust traps.
Using the car means it dries out properly but I always keep it garaged, usually with the doors open.
In snow it drives really well on original tyres.
I like your style Fuzzy!

Hello Fuzzy, and welcome.
I am in the USA. Just a bit south of Nashville, TN.
First thing you need to do is buy a Haynes manual for your car. You can get these on ebay.
The next thing you need to do is change the oil, and clean the centrifugal oil cleaner. Oil is the life blood of these cars. You will need a manual or use a YouTube video to show you how to clean the oil "filter."
Air filter, fuel filter, spark plugs, plug wires, rotor, cap, and new points should done if the age of these items is unknown.
You can get the fuel filter anywhere. It is basically a lawn mower fuel filter. Other items are more specific. Mr Fiat is good for these basic items, but for anything else (i.e. more expensive) you are probably going to save money buy purchasing out of Europe.
Here are some European sources that have no trouble shipping to the USA
https://www.fiat500ricambi.com/
https://webshop.fiat500126.com/
https://www.fiat500vdlaan.nl/en/index.php
I have personally used F.D. Ricambi. Shipping was very fast (a few days only), communication from them was excellent.
You need to make sure you register an account on these sites. This way they know you are in a non-EU country and the prices on their web sites magically have the 21% VAT taxes removed, which essentially pays for the shipping.
John

Hi Fuzzy . I was employed in the car manufacture related sector in the 60's and 70's within the UK. Your little car looks in really good nick and as theses cars were designed and manufactured for arid conditions you have done well.I would guess that the majority of cars from that era are now no more. I always believed that some cars were made better than others and came to the conclusion that the better cars were acquired by employees off the production line,if you follow my drift,no proof though. I think you may have got hold of one of these cars. There's a lot of good advice already given. Waxoil is good .I 'm quite envious of your father as I would guess we may be of the same generation. All the best with your project

Hey fiat500, thanks for the thoughts. POR 15 looks like it's pretty easy to apply, so I might look in to that. You've found it works pretty well?

For John, I appreciate the advice for parts and stuff to replace. I found a .pdf of a Haynes manual online, so I've been using that. We replaced the plugs, wires, rotor, cap, and points to get her going, and she fired right up. Oil is changed, but I thank you for the 'clean the centrifugal oil filter'. I had to look it up, but I'll get to it this weekend. Is there anything to it, other than unscrewing the 6 screws, putting a new filter in, and putting it back together?

Do you have a specific recommendation for what kind of oil one should use?

Finally, for Arthur, I usually tease my dad about having been born in the time dinosaurs ruled the world, and that he's the last one - fatguyosaurus. He usually counters by shaking his cane at me and muttering something about using it to fight off the hoards of women that would throw themselves at him, if I wasn't there to drag him down... It's a healthy relationship

Anyhow, I hope you're all having a great weekend. Thanks again for all the advice, and I look forward to learning more and talking to y'all. Who knew this would be such a fun project!

-Fuzzyface

When you come to do the oil-filter, you will find that there is nothing to replace---it is a (remarkably effective) centrifugal filter. With a bit of finger dexterity, it can be done without removing the rear cross-member. When you have the filter outer casing off you will see what looks like 'rubber gunge' inside the plate you have just taken off AND the main part of the filter left on the engine. This 'gunge' is the impurities that has been centrifugally thrown out to the edges of the filter. Carefully remove all the gunge, from both parts of the filter and clean it out (so that no lumps of the gunge go back through the engine), refit the large 'O' ring seal and bolt the outer part of the filter back on. It would be wise to mark the filter housing and the pulley (little blob of paint) so that the housing goes back easily in the same place. I would recommend that this bit of 'servicing' is done annually or every 6,000 miles, whichever is sooner.

Apologies Fuzzy, forgot your other question----what oil? I always recommend a good 20/50 in standard engines--Pennzol can supply a 20/50;"Pennzol Motor Oil" Castrol (if you can get it in the 'States) is another very good brand who do a 20/50. You only need to go to higher specification oils if either you have (a) a tuned engine or, (b) you live in a very hot climate. Don't forget, these engines were designed to run in Italy in the 1950's, when oil technology was nowhere near as good as it is today. Don't be fooled by 'semi-synthetic' and 'full-synthetic'. ALL oil starts as the black stuff that comes out of the ground, and whether it is 'semi' or 'full' depends on the amount of additives the manufacturer puts into it Whatever you do with the car---just take it out and enjoy it!

I remember reading somewhere that synthetic oil does have some distinct features which might be considered to be an advantage.
One of these is that the molecules have been engineered to be of a consistent size. The implication of this being that if you simplistically consider those molecules to be microscopic ball-bearings, having these in a mixture of diameters is obvously not as good as if they are identical in size.
The fact that the chemistry of synthetic oil makes it very resistant to this and its other special qualities being broken down with heat and time is another great advantage.
However, I agree that "normal" SAE 20W50 oil, changed at least as frequently as originally recommended by FIAT is probably going to enable a standard 500 engine to maximise its lifespan and run optimally.
In fact you're doing the best thing for the engine by running it (presumably filled with some sort of oil) as frequently as possible.

For driving in all weather climates except winter, 20w50 oil is usually preferred. Easily found anywhere in the USA. If you have the stock oil pan (black painted steel) then the refill is slightly less than 3 quarts.
I would not recommend driving this car in the winter. First, and foremost these cars do not have any kind of galvanized body panels like modern cars. No matter what you apply to the car, if it starts to see road salt the car WILL start to rust everywhere. Best to park it until the roads are free of salt.
John

Attached is a picture of the centrifugal oil "filter" with the cover removed. A screwdriver or something similar will work well to pull all of that sediment out, while being careful not to knock any of it back into the engine.

P.S. I absolutely second your "spending the entire driving experience terrified" statement. I'm driving out in Montana surrounded by massive lifted pickup trucks and SUV's. Once you get past the horrible implications of bumpers being at face height, it just makes the drives more thrilling!

jjacob said:

I would not recommend driving this car in the winter.

Click to expand...

It depends how long your winters are and, to put it bluntly, how many more of them you expect to see. In my case I'm hoping that I'm good for another 30 and if the car drops apart a couple of years before that then I can bequeath a wonderful project for someone younger than me. If I don't last that long, maybe the car will find a more sympathetic owner.

Realistically, it looks like I should expect to have to respray my car after 6 or 7 years if I want it to look smart, (I did it myself using cellulose) but I couldn't bear using it for maybe only 6 months of the year and some of my best journeys have been in the early and late parts of the season.

MAL_9518 by Peter Thompson, on Flickr