Hi everyone,

A slightly odd post this one, but I have become a little concerned about the possibility of carbon monoxide in the cabin of my car since it's been modified to the 595SS specification.

What's sparking my interest is my five year old son. He loves taking rides in the car, even more so now that it's been modified a little, but he's recently started to fall asleep on almost every journey over 15-20 mins in length.

He literally NEVER falls asleep during daylight hours (God knows we struggle to get him to sleep at bed time), and didn't do so before the mods, so this is very odd behaviour for him, particularly given the thunderous engine note that it now has.

I've tried widows and roof up, windows and roof down, makes no difference.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the possibility of exhaust fumes and carbon monoxide getting in to the cabin? I can only ever really smell evidence of this when we stop at lights and we have a tail wind (blowing it back in the direction of the open windows and roof).

Sorry, odd post I know.

Hi,
its certainly possible, and WELL WORTH investigating

:idea:I suppose it could be possible to use an Exhaust analyser in the rear of the cabin..

see a friendly garage..

they are supposed to be able to "sniff" hydrocarbons in the coolant from HG failure

are the cable runs etc , unaffected by the swap..? maybe double check the grommetts, plates, etc

Charlie

They sell battery alarms and tell tale "dots" that change colour in Do It Yourself stores...cheap answer is available.
The hollow bolts in the head are meant to pass these gases away using the " gas ring" machined into the head - mine have been machined out during heavy mods....

Hi Pete
If the head gasket leaks and the gas ring has been skimmed out of the head then you can get exhaust gas into the heater system. Could also happen if gasket blows and the correct gas escape hollow bolts have not been fitted either side of the head. You do also have the heater on/off flap at the top back of he tunnel which should isolate the interior.

It's not an odd post Pete, since I think the Fiat 500 is one of the few cars where it is relatively likely or even certain that "fumes" will get into the cabin at some point.
I would keep your wee one out of the car until you have tested with a CO monitor. But I wouldn't discount the sleep-inducing properties of the buzz and hum of the Fiat 500 so easily. My five-year old grandson can fall asleep in a minute once we are underway, whilst the eight-year old in the front just chats away non-stop.:bang:
The car does have the advantages that the engine being in the back, a lot of the waste gases are naturally deflected backwards and having such a leaky cabin, with the sunroof and the dashboard which can be subjected to a fair old wind factor creeping under the bonnet, there is a good airflow. I always have the quarter-light open, even when it's raining, which helps.
I suspect that there is some covered-up history about casulaties from CO on the 500, as the exit groove and hollow-bolt device is a modification which I don't think early cars had. I wouldn't 100% trust it anyway as the 650 engine I recently dismanted had been blowing a gasket but the groove was dull of congealed oil and tar.

A simple carbon monoxide sensor/alarm, as available for your kitchen would tell you the state of the 'air' in the car.

Opening windows will often make this worse. The high pressure at the back of the car pushes the exhaust fumes in. An open window allows air out, helping the exhaust enter.

portland_bill said:

Opening windows will often make this worse..

Click to expand...

Yikes

I am quite sure I don't have this problem but i am definitely going to try a CO monitor to check.

Thanks everyone.

I've ordered some carbon monoxide detectors to check it out, and make sure I'm not chasing a red herring. I'll also talk to Jondell Racing (the company that skimmed and ported the head) and Middle Barton, as they did the rest of the 595SS upgrade.

I'll keep the group informed on this one.

Pete

It sounds very unusual for CO poisoning/toxicity, but worth looking into nevertheless.

Chris

Hi Guys

CO2 poisoning is a very real danger in aircraft too. Many small piston engines aeroplanes pass air over the hot engine exhaust pipes to provide heated air for the cabin.

Here in New Zealand (and most other countries as far as I am aware) it is mandatory to have a Carbon Monoxide detector in the cabin.

Most people use these things or similar. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/llifecodetectors.php?clickkey=9700. They are a passive monitor, in that you have to look at them, rather than more sophisticated, and expensive units that scream at you if the carbon monoxide levels get too high.

A point to note is that carbon monoxide is colourless and odourless. The effects of poisoning are hard to detect in yourself because of what it does to you. A guy I was in the Airforce with died because he became overcome with carbon monoxide poisoning and crashed the plane he was flying.

However, I would have happily traded CO poisoning for a quiet car ride with my boy when he was younger!

Any aircooled engine that uses a heat exchanger for cabin heating will be susceptible to fumes in the cabin when the exhaust system succumbs to corrosion. The DAF 33 & 44 (Go on, Google them) gave such a problem and we regularly changed heat exchangers. Aircooled VWs have been known to do it too.

Water cooled engines are not immune, but in their case, exhaust fumes enter the cabin by other means. A poorly-fitting tailgate seal on hatchbacks is a prime cause. So when carrying those planks home from the DIY centre, with the tailgate not shut, be aware of the fumes entering the cabin and keep the journey short.

looigi said:

Hi Guys

CO2 poisoning is a very real danger in aircraft too. Many small piston engines aeroplanes pass air over the hot engine exhaust pipes to provide heated air for the cabin.

Here in New Zealand (and most other countries as far as I am aware) it is mandatory to have a Carbon Monoxide detector in the cabin.

Most people use these things or similar. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/llifecodetectors.php?clickkey=9700. They are a passive monitor, in that you have to look at them, rather than more sophisticated, and expensive units that scream at you if the carbon monoxide levels get too high.

A point to note is that carbon monoxide is colourless and odourless. The effects of poisoning are hard to detect in yourself because of what it does to you. A guy I was in the Airforce with died because he became overcome with carbon monoxide poisoning and crashed the plane he was flying.

However, I would have happily traded CO poisoning for a quiet car ride with my boy when he was younger!

Click to expand...

Have had experience of CO in an aircraft, but luckily we were in the circuit and close by. The only way we new of something going on was that we had an oily smell too, so it was just as well as the engine had a bad leak and would have gone bang!!!! I'm up for one of the passive button monitors in my car just in case!!!

Ian.

Hi all.

Visual CO2 sensors arrived by post on Saturday. I've been away all weekend but will use one from my next drive and report back via this post.

Hopefully this is a red herring and my son is just falling asleep because of the vibration and hum of the engine, but even if the sensor shows nothing on the first few drives I'm going to leave one in the cabin permanently after reading the rest of this thread.

I wonder if one of those Pulse Oximeters that clip onto your finger would work to warn of CO in the bloodstream. I got one a while back in Lidl c.£25?.
It's supposed to measure Oxygen levels in the blood , typically 94-98%?.
I'm no doctor but afaik increasing CO in the bloodstream reduces the amount of Oxygen that can be carried.

Just a thought.

Al.

Pete145 said:

Hi all.

Visual CO2 sensors arrived by post on Saturday. I've been away all weekend but will use one from my next drive and report back via this post.

Hopefully this is a red herring and my son is just falling asleep because of the vibration and hum of the engine, but even if the sensor shows nothing on the first few drives I'm going to leave one in the cabin permanently after reading the rest of this thread.

Click to expand...

Have you considered that he is just worn out from all the excitement of travelling in a Classic.....

Often happens to little people, they are so excited and looking forward to something they really like e.g. their birthday party, that just after it starts, they nod off... Ever left a little person in the car, gone into a store to get him/her an ice-cream cone and on returning, find them sound asleep... (I've often had to eat 2 ice cream cones myself....)

Al.

Hi everyone.

Well I finally took her for a drive today with a CO2 sensor on the dashboard. Two relatively short drives, but long enough to replicate my son's snoozing.

Happy to say that the orange sensor remained orange, and didn't turn black. I tried a few options, roof off and windows down, roof on and windows up, could make the sensor black.

Will keep an eye on this, but the first test was all clear.

F123C said:

I wonder if one of those Pulse Oximeters that clip onto your finger would work to warn of CO in the bloodstream. I got one a while back in Lidl c.£25?.
It's supposed to measure Oxygen levels in the blood , typically 94-98%?.
I'm no doctor but afaik increasing CO in the bloodstream reduces the amount of Oxygen that can be carried.

Just a thought.

Al.

Click to expand...

Hi I don't think a pulse oximeter would be accurate. The work by using the redness of the blood (red /infrared light ratio). Poorly oxygenated people turn blue. But CO causes carboxyhemoglobin which is bright red (oxygen is strongly bound so body can't use it)


Robert G8RPI.
P.S googled it and I'm correct
http://www.oximetry.org/pulseox/lim_cohb.htm