The spring stops the whole lot, including the pedal, from rattling. It also keeps the release bearing from repeatedly bouncing on the clutch....you need it.
Pull the lever at the gearbox as far as it will go towards the rear of the car...the direction that the spring would pull it in. You should feel the pedal being pulled upwards from the floor. Then slowly push it towards the front of the car until you feel definite resistance. It should need only a small amount of travel to achieve this. If the movement is significant, this equates to a lot of pedal travel before the clutch even starts to work, so slacken the small locknut on the cable and try to wind the larger one in the direction of the front of the car. This may be challenging if things are seized, but if you can keep going until there is just a small amount of free movement before the clutch lever reaches a resistance, you will have the clutch pedal roughly where it should be and it can be fine-tuned later; but at least then you may have some improvement.

Your images hadn't uploaded when I first replied but one of that gear linkage area and the part where the clutch cable is clamped to the gearbox would be useful.

Brilliant thank you for the simplified explanation. There is a lot of movement I think, it would take a big spring to get the lever back to where I recall I could pull it. Something to check when the sun is up tomorrow on this side of the world

If you can catch your nearby 500 owner, and he has the original gearbox, maybe ask him to take your car for a drive.

Also you have to rev the engine as you change down gears as putting it into second from third etc means the engine has to be moving faster to match the speed the car is going in that gear.

Do not rev going up the gears but take your time, start off in first gear, in, neutral clutch out, clutch in again then second and so on.

My uncle taught me this in his 500 many years ago and it has not let me down.

Cheers

Geoff

When I took your car for a drive here in Christchurch the gearbox seemed normal. As far as I could tell in the 100' I managed to get it before it ran out of fuel anyway! I wouldn't stress about the gearbox condition just yet.

My wife is struggling with the gearbox on our new 500F for the same reason as you. My advice is to change gear s...l...o...w...l...y. Geoff's suggestion of going for a ride with your neighbour is a great one and would be the best way of learning.

Once you get the hang of how to drive these cars, they really are very satisfying and fun to drive.

The oil leak you have looks like engine oil to me. Maybe a pushrod tube, leaking oil pressure sender or dipstick? The best way of finding it is to clean the engine to within an inch of it's life, then run it for a short while. Then the source of the leak should be obvious.

Chris

Thanks Chris! I was actually thinking of your drive just now and wondering how it was.
I will grab my local buddy and see if he can show me how it's done, but I feel like I'm easing into the gears so slowly I'm almost stopping before it gets in!
Finding a spring and seeing if I need to lift the clutch should be some simple ports of call as well first up. I think the gearbox is great as once it's in gear it feels sweet!

The secret is to match the speed of the shafts in the gearbox before you select the gear. That is what the engine rev in neutral on the downshift is all about.

Don't move the gear lever slowly. On the up change use a positive movement into neutral, pause, then when the revs are right, another positive movement into the next gear. The down change needs a double de clutch of course.

It will take a while to learn, but when you get it right, it is quite fun. I used to get out of my Fiat 500 and straight into big linehaul trucks with 13, 15 or 18 speed Road Ranger gearboxes in them and pedal them down the road with no worries. The technique is exactly the same.

Chris

A member of this forum, I believe Adriano, posted an interesting video explaining how to drive the car properly. I recommend showing her the video as it's pretty straightforward.

But yes, move slowly, and if you're having trouble getting her into first (from standstill) just put her into second and then you should be able to get it into first again without grinding.

I completely agree with Peter---I think that a large part of your gear-change problem is down to incorrectly adjusted clutch pedal free-play. (the movement of the pedal before it has any effect on clutch engagement/dis-engagement). The lack of return spring won't help the situation and MUST be replaced--on the gearbox the spring hooks into a notch on the edge of the bell-housing. It might also be adventageous to leave the adjusting nuts over night after spraying them copiously with a releasing agent (e.g. WD40).
Geoff's suggestion to ask your 500 'neighbour' to give you a demonstration of double-de-clutching is very sensible--he may also be able to advise you as to how much clutch-pedal free-play you have/need.
A piece of advice---only engage first gear WHEN THE CAR IS STATIONARY as 1st has no synchro.
Double-de-clutching is basically very simple--once you become proficient, you will probably catch yourself doing it as a matter of course on all the manual-shift cars that you drive--I know, because I do! As Geoff has pointed out, UP shifts are basically a case of gently moving the gear lever, as you would in any manual-shift car. Changing DOWN however definitely needs double-de-clutching. When it comes to down-shift, lift your foot off the throttle pedal, depress the clutch pedal and pull the gear-lever out of the high gear position. Then, lift your foot off the clutch pedal and give the throttle a little 'blip'. Remove foot from throttle, depress clutch pedal and put the gear lever into the lower gear position--when in gear, take your foot off the clutch pedal and depress the throttle enough to match road speed and the new (higher) engine speed. The point of giving the engine a gentle 'blip' is to match the speed of the gear-box internals with the new higher engine speed.
If you are having to brake as you change down a gear at the same time (quite a common situation) you use a technique called "heel and toeing". This is a bit of a misnomer because you don't actually use your heel! What you do as you are pushing down on the brake pedal is to roll your braking foot onto the throttle pedal to 'blip' it at the appropriate time. This is nowhere difficult as it sound as the pedals on the 500 are perfectly placed to allow you to do this technique.
Once you have mastered the techniques of double-de-clutching and 'heel and toeing' you will be surprised how fast you can down-shift the 500 box. It is a matter of practice, and so, in the words of "Lone Watie" (Chief Dan George in 'The Outlaw Josie Wales')---"endeavour to persevere"

Thanks for the fantastic and wise discussion!

I managed to adjust the clutch pedal a little. Too much at first as it sort of whirred a little when the pedal was depressed, but then just right. It did drive much better after that but still a little clunky/grating. Then funnily enough on the test run I drove the little blue past my italian 500 neighbour's place and he was out in his garage, so he waved me in for a chat about our little pieces of history as he calls them.

Things got onto my clutch concerns and into the driver's seat he hopped, and I got a master class. This guy was changing gears smoothly without using the clutch at all (hopefully that is ok), just using his 20 years of 500 driving to know the sound of the engine. Heel-toeing perfectly of course. Anyway, he made it look like great fun, and the car sounded beautiful.

Probably the number 1 lesson out of it was that I am changing up gears too late, and that the gearing is very different to what I'm used to with other manuals. 1st is definitely only from stop and 2nd isn't much beyond that, then 4th one isn't going nearly as fast as I would be in a modern car. Of course I still messed up on my way home but over time, I shall learn.

fiat500 said:

The spring stops the whole lot, including the pedal, from rattling. It also keeps the release bearing from repeatedly bouncing on the clutch....you need it.

Click to expand...

Sigh. So amongst some other parts I received my clutch spring thingo last week. Today after washing the car I thought, "let's spend 5 minutes putting that spring on".

Jinxed myself.
1.5 hours later the spring is back in the box it came in.

Essentially when I fit the spring to a correctly adjusted clutch cable, the pedal ends up almost at the roof of the footwell. Ie I have about 20-30cm of free travel before the clutch engages! Obviously if I adjust the nuts on the cable so the 'lollypop' sits closer to the spring, I end up with a clutch that doesn't ever disengage and I can't change gears.

Probably at the point of leaving well enough alone, but curious if anyone else has had something similar?

BambinoClassic said:

Essentially when I fit the spring to a correctly adjusted clutch cable, the pedal ends up almost at the roof of the footwell. Ie I have about 20-30cm of free travel before the clutch engages!

Click to expand...

My instinct is that you either haven't actually got the cable adjusted properly or that the spring is somehow in the wrong place.Ahhhh ....photo needed please.

Is there any or much threaded rod still available on the adjuster at the forward side of the clutch actuating lever?

Ah my terms are not always accurate as such. When I say the clutch is adjusted correctly, I mean that it's at a point that it works!

The nut and lever are basically in the same place as the images on the prior page:https://www.fiatforum.com/500-classic/440086-clunking-grating-while-shifting-2.html?p=4288846 as I found that if I brought the lever much closer to the frontside of the threaded rod, I didn't engage the clutch fully, and if I undid the nuts and ended up with a lever nearer the centre of the rod, I couldn't activate the clutch.

THe spring is running from the small hole in the end of the clutch lever to the little notch in the metal bit on the far right in the first image.

I'm wondering if my cable is too short and so the pedal is pulled higher when the lever is in a position it is meant to be. Would that make sense?

Not sure if this helps!
Basically when I pull the clutch lever all the way to the rear of the car by hand, to emulate what the spring does, I end up with a pedal at the roof of the footwell and 20-30cm freeplay.

If I adjust the nut towards the back of the car, giving more free cable so the pedal sits at about the brake level, it then becomes all free play and there's no resistance at any point of the pedal depression.

Adjusting the nut further forward I think brings the pedal too low so the clutch can't fully disengage, though it's hard to tell.

I'm not sure why there's so much free play but I'm worried as reading the manual:

"A return spring connected to the outer operating lever
is anchored onto the gearbox casing. When the clutch is in
its normal position the spring keeps the central thrust
carbon ring away from the withdrawal levers carrier ring."

That sounds important!

BambinoClassic said:

Adjusting the nut further forward I think brings the pedal too low so the clutch can't fully disengage, though it's hard to tell.


:

Click to expand...

Whatever position you have the cable adjustment nut in and whether or not the return spring is in place, move the clutch-pedal by hand from its highest point until you feel it meet resistance but before it gets really hard to push. If you can measure that distance of movement, maybe with a tape-measure based on the bottom of the steering wheel, it should between 35
and 40mm (Haynes). If it's more than that, which I think it will be, keep turning the nut further forward and see if you have sufficient thread to achieve that measurement. Ifcorrectly adusted there is no danger of the thrust bearing being constantly in contact with the pressure plate, which answers the other query.
Your clutch is likely to be the earlier type with coil springs and that might mean there are parameters that I'm not familiar with. But if you can't achieve a balanced operation with the above procedure it may be that something else is wrong. The absence of the spring in the first place might be a clue to that.:bang:

Had a quick skim over some of this post but not sure what model 500 you have. Your quote from the manual made me think as it mentions the carbon bearing that was used on the earlier cars with a pressure assembly that had a plain thrust ring. Later clutches used a mechanical thrust bearing that would not wear down like the carbon one. Do you know what type of clutch you have in there?

Just to muddy things a little; I have a copy of "Glenn's" "Fiat Repair and Tune-up", which covers early USA models of many varieties of Fiat car. On these very early types, the clutch-cable adjustment was at the pedal. Is it possible that you have some sort of hybridised version that someone has messed about with?

fiat500 said:

Whatever position you have the cable adjustment nut in and whether or not the return spring is in place, move the clutch-pedal by hand from its highest point until you feel it meet resistance but before it gets really hard to push. If you can measure that distance of movement, maybe with a tape-measure based on the bottom of the steering wheel, it should between 35 and 40mm (Haynes).

Click to expand...

Thanks Toshi and Peter for the input. I'm a bit stumped as I've never seen a 'normal' one. I have a 63 D if that helps, and the carbon info comes from what the manual says applies to the D clutch.

I uploaded a couple of videos if anyone has a moment. The first video [ame="https://youtu.be/riUP5eLyckI"]FIRST VIDEO[/ame] shows me operating the clutch pedal by hand. There's about an inch or so of space before it meets resistance. You can probably also see that it looks like a standard cable attachment at the pedal. In that video I also show the clutch lifted all the way up - that position is where it ends up on the second video [ame="https://youtu.be/1yHqqydFAyE"]SECOND VIDEO[/ame] in the second half, when I pull the lever to the rear of the car.

That second video shows my little girl helping out, stretching to reach the clutch! Pushing the pedal and releasing a few times, before I pull the clutch lever back to where it is held when the spring is in place. At that point the clutch pedal is right up in the footwell as per the first video when I lift it.

Something seems not right, but I don't know if I should 'fix' it. For what it's worth I've had a few runs to and from tyre fitting and inspections for registration and I'm enjoying utilising the tips from others! - changing down up hill, keep the accelerator down and slip in :slayer: I also find that double clutching even going up gears gives a much smoother operation.

Had a look at your videos.

1st video, your clutch pedal looks normal enough, seems to have approx. 25mm of free play. Don't know what's happening to allow the pedal to be lifted up so high. I can't remember if there should be some sort of stop bracket/tab to limit the upward travel of the pedal. How does the car drive with the pedal adjusted this way?

2nd video, there's something suspicious about the position of the clutch release lever! Usually with the clutch released, the angle between the lever and the cable is less than 90 degrees. As the clutch is operated, this angle increases to 90 degrees and more. There's a sort of 'over-centre' action involved. The pressure applied to the release lever is most effective when the angle is 90 degrees. As the angle goes much above 90 degrees, each mm of cable movement gives less and less movement of the release lever, so the clutch may not free fully causing gear crunching.

I wonder if a later diaphragm pressure plate/release bearing has been fitted instead of an older style coil spring pressure plate/carbon release bearing? Maybe the release lever/fork is not the correct one for the type of clutch fitted.

Some older Fiats used a release fork held to a cross shaft and release lever by a stepped bolt inside the bellhousing. Sometimes (rarely) the bolt can work loose causing the release lever to move through a greater angle before pressing against the release bearing to operate the clutch. The bolt eventually either shears off or falls out. Or maybe a regular bolt was fitted instead of the correct stepped type?

You might be able to check out some of the above by removing any cover plates/dust shields on the bellhousing or removing the starter motor, otherwise it's an engine or transmission removal in order to inspect.

Best option, I think, is to adjust the clutch to where it doesn't slip or crunch when changing gears and just drive and enjoy the car.

Al. (just rambling-on out loud, as usual

F123C said:

2nd video, there's something suspicious about the position of the clutch release lever! Usually with the clutch released, the angle between the lever and the cable is less than 90 degrees. As the clutch is operated, this angle increases to 90 degrees and more. There's a sort of 'over-centre' action involved. The pressure applied to the release lever is most effective when the angle is 90 degrees. As the angle goes much above 90 degrees, each mm of cable movement gives less and less movement of the release lever, so the clutch may not free fully causing gear crunching.

Click to expand...

Oh wow thanks for all the detail! Amazingly technical, and great knowledge thank you.

I know what you mean about the lever - there seems to be very little actual motion for the clutch pedal depression. When I lift the pedal up in the floor pan, I can see something at the front of the clutch mechanism lifting outwards. I don't know what this is but it's all pretty curious and well beyond me.

Unless anything seems of concern, I'm happy to go with your closing statements and keep on enjoying the car!

Given the oddness of the clutch lever, I'm wondering if the gearbox might have been changed.

Reason for my increased suspicion is that the speedo is way off! A good 10mph out of whack using my speedo app (which is accurate on our boring car)