I have a 650cc engine and synchro gearbox that I rebuilt with new big ends, crank seals, new drive shafts, timing chain and gears. Totally re sprayed tin work. It's a very late engine from a 97 Polish built 126 without a distributor. I have probably spent about £350 on top of the purchase price and proven it is in decent running condition by bench testing it.

Here is the dilemma. I appreciate that people want to upgrade the 500 to go a bit faster and stop a bit quicker but I am, as you are probably all aware a bit of an old school tradionalist who likes the car to stay original. I was thinking about putting the 650 engine and gearbox into my 500 just to prove it all runs ok and is a good running engine and gearbox. Then take a few videos to prove it.

But as my neighbour pointed out, a retired classic car contours judge, it is a lot of work to swap the whole lot around and put the engine and gearbox in only to then take it out again. In reality if I wanted I could just take a video of the original 500 engine and gearbox being run and claim it was the 650. I wouldn't do that of course because I would not want to mislead people.

Should I just stick it on eBay as it is with a bench test video to prove it is a good engine or should I do the transplant?

Tony

Hello Tony

If it is just to video it running, I'd say bench test it in it's finished state and video that. That will be just as good. Obviously it doesn't show the gearbox working, but personally I think that's not a big issue.

Then you could offer a return within say 30 days, if they are not completely happy. The only problem with this is if they mess something up during install.

Another option is to import another 500 from Italy, covert it, and do everything required to get it through MOT and sell it on at a few £K profit. That way you also get to try out your engine and gearbox.

cheers, Steve

TRANSPLANT!!!
Get on with it.
I would really trust your judgement on how much difference it makes and I am intrigued by all the many threads discussing improving the power output of the 500.
If you liked it (and I think you will), just keep running it as longs as it's runs well.
You then have the joy of tinkering with the 500 engine, (even though we know it's OK}, to double check, improve and "gild the lily" where you can,

Preparing for the engine transplant hopefully this week. I have spent today constructing my engine trolley to assist with it.

It is a bit Heath Robinson but is a masterpiece of engineering!!!

It has room to slide the trolley jack in and means the engine will only need to be lifted a couple of inches to get it in the right place once it is slid into the engine bay. It comes with lockable wheels to prevent it moving around and specially installed drive shaft supports (AKA flower pots) to prevent the rubbers getting creased.

It looks crazy but actually works really well, well once you have managed to get the engine and gearbox on it.:chin:

Tony, Your engine 'sledge' is very similar to the one that I built and did an article on for the 'Fiat 500 Enthusiasts Club' magazine. The only modification that I would suggest is that you put a deck onto it, (anything more than 12mm ply)--this (a) gives some 'waggle' area for when you are fitting/removing the engine, and (b) stiffens the whole assembly. You can then just screw a couple of blocks onto it to support the 1/2 shafts.
I personally think that you are wise to fit the 652cc engine---even in standard form it will make a noticeable difference in the performance, which with the increase in traffic speed since they were originally sold, makes it a less stressful experience on the road. If kept in good nick, the brakes will prove to be completely adequate.

the hobbler said:

Tony, Your engine 'sledge' is very similar to the one that I built and did an article on for the 'Fiat 500 Enthusiasts Club' magazine. The only modification that I would suggest is that you put a deck onto it, (anything more than 12mm ply)--this (a) gives some 'waggle' area for when you are fitting/removing the engine, and (b) stiffens the whole assembly. You can then just screw a couple of blocks onto it to support the 1/2 shafts.
I personally think that you are wise to fit the 652cc engine---even in standard form it will make a noticeable difference in the performance, which with the increase in traffic speed since they were originally sold, makes it a less stressful experience on the road. If kept in good nick, the brakes will prove to be completely adequate.

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So Tom are you suggesting a deck and let the engine just sit on top, sitting on its sump? The problem is if you look at the picture I have made one leg of the sledge higher than the other to accommodate the gap where the leg sits by the exhaust. So my deck would be on an angle.

What you are saying does make sense though about the waggle room needed when fitting the engine. I have some shuttering board that is about 20mm thick so I will revisit tomorrow and get the legs the same height and see if I can get it to the right height so no jack is needed and you can just plonk the engine on top and slide straight in. It's only held together with wood screws and some brackets so would be really easy to change.

HI Tony

What is strapped to the side of the starter motor? I assume it's the solenoid version. If so its discreet isn't it

Be prepared to re-wire to the starter motor due to position change. Wiring was just ok on mine. I had to relocate my starter cable, but I see yours is a solenoid one.

Also are you going to use the coil switched feed for the ecu or running a new one?

cheers, Steve

stevehg said:

HI Tony

What is strapped to the side of the starter motor? I assume it's the solenoid version. If so its discreet isn't it

Be prepared to re-wire to the starter motor due to position change. Wiring was just ok on mine. I had to relocate my starter cable, but I see yours is a solenoid one.

Also are you going to use the coil switched feed for the ecu or running a new one?

cheers, Steve

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Yeah it is the solenoid Steve, it's why they have the massive dent in the heater tunnel to accommodate it, that I mentioned on your thread.

I am going to run an additional cable through the centre console for the starter and I have a 850 ignition switch that fits in the same hole in the dash to replace the existing switch but it has the added addition of twisting the key to start, so is a neat unobtrusive change.

When you say the coil switched feed. Do you mean the dry coil wasted spark one?

Tony

Vitesse said:

When you say the coil switched feed. Do you mean the dry coil wasted spark one?

Tony

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I meant the ignition switched 12V feed to your existing coil on your current 499 engine. I used this as the switched 12V feed for the ecu.

cheers, Steve

stevehg said:

I meant the ignition switched 12V feed to your existing coil on your current 499 engine. I used this as the switched 12V feed for the ecu.

cheers, Steve

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Oh right I thought you meant something different originally. TBH I haven't thought that far ahead yet but it makes sense to do what you have done with the coil feed.

The plan is to mount the ecu and dry coil in the same place as yours as its the best place and on the cool side of the engine, and all the wiring is pretty much accessible there. Then think about the wiring needed but you have already helped with that with your suggestion.

I bought an old original voltage regulator on EBay for £6.99, so I am going to gut that and just use the terminals for the alternator wiring changes.

The original IMB carb had a cutout valve on it that needed a switched 12v but I had to change the carb as the butterfly and shaft appeared to be oversized and I managed to snap the screw off when changing the butterfly, so I ended up having to buy a refurbed IMB 28 to replace it, that didn't have the cutout so it also fixed the need for the additional 12v switched.

Hi Tony

You may already be aware, but in case you are not, I've found out you'll probably also need to lower the engine when you fit it. It may be down to me using the uprated spring in the engine mount, and so if you intend to use the standard spring you may be ok. For me the engine clears everything else ok and the exhaust is fine with the rear cross member, however, it sits high enough that on bumps the rebound is sufficient for the pulley to hit the underside of the spring mount frame on the rear cross member.

I'm not sure if this was part of the reason why Fiat went with the different (and no doubt cheaper) engine mount on the 500R.

For me, I'll need to order the engine spacer to drop the engine down.

cheers, Steve

Cheers Steve.. I fitted an uprated spring when I last fitted the 500 lump in the car last year.

So I have that spring plus the additional one that was fitted before which is slightly longer. Plus when I bought the engine and gearbox I was given a box of bits that had the spring off the 126 and all the fitments that came with it when it was removed from the car and I am pretty sure there was a spacer in there as well. I will have to have a look tomorrow, it's sitting in the garage somewhere I it is ages since I have looked in there.

But I will be mindful of what you have pointed out when fitting the engine.

Tony

Hi guys does anyone know if the original 500 starter motor will work on the 650 motor?

Not unless the motor casing, bell-housing or crankcase are modified. It's quite a lot of work but not impossible

The 500 and 650 bell housings, whilst easily interchangeable on the gearbox, are quite different. The 500 starter is a 2-bolt mounting at the top of the crank-case/bell-housing; the 650 starter is a 3-bolt fixing at the o/s of the crank-case/bell-housing (right side looking from the REAR). It MIGHT be possible to swap starter end-housings; it MIGHT be possible to modify a 500 bell-housing to fit a 126 ('Nicki' to you upside down people), but basically, if you can find a 126 engine/gearbox combination, do so and just swap the lot--it will be a lot easier, and possibly cheaper, in the long run. Lastly, with the increase in modern traffic flow-speeds, the fitting of a 126 engine, I personally think, is a wise move--it looks the same, but gives you that bit more 'grunt' to deal safely with traffic.